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psw

Sustainer Ideas

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problem is i like that plan but i would like to see pictures of how these things are done to give me an idea of how something should look at im going along. Well, im not trying to recreate the wheel like thing that PSW is doing, but would like to trail behind to see if i can improve. I cant improve if i cant see what to improve on, and can see what to improve on if i dont know how or why the thing works and built. Well thats me. I would just like to see picts of how thats made because its soundl like somthing i can do.

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Hmmm

hey take a look at this text i found on the net:

"Fernandez Sustainer -buildable?

You didn't see it on this thread did you? It looks familiar...

Still...this is the basic principle...I'm trying to take it to the next level.

One thing about all the sustainer systems like this is that they have to replace the neck pickup (so you loose that) and will only work with the bridge pickup.

I'm working with small concentrated magnetic fields so that the device is very small and the EMI lower so as to allow no instrument modification (well very little...nothing permanent), no change to the tone of the guitar, and more range of possibilities.....

Still, I am getting oscillation problems so I'll have to look into this, could be an important part of solving this problem....It would be great to hear from someone who has actually made something like this. It would help us understand how much truth there is in some of the esoteric circuitry found in the patents!

good contribution

:Dpsw B)

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um. the lab thingy looks wierd. Oh whats a UV or what ever. Um im new at this. sorry. Oh and my guitar teacher taught me if i took my Zoom 606 and boosted the Comp on it with no equalizer and no noise reduction that you can create an infinate sustain. Whats with that, i mean it sounds just like PSW's system just a little less clean.

hey monkey question if i may, not to be rude but what is your electronics background. some of the things discussed here are quite advanced, and while we do not wish to alienate anyone however there has to be a certain level of basic electronics and math to realy break down the formulas. not that it cant' be done. just it would help all of us to know where you are coming from so we know how to tailor a response to suit your needs, at least i know it would help me, as i draw out schematics for people all the time for cracked otu wiring diagrams for guitar but it seems that many people have a hard time understanding even basic seymour duncan layouts and can't quite seem to follow it. coming from the fact that i have been doing electronics for more than 20 years and wiring guitars for the past 15 jor so, there isnt' much i haven't seen and sometimes this makes some of my answers seem quite strange to say the least, that and i am a lunatic but thats another story.

the link i posted before will help you understand everything from the basic functions of a transistor all the way up to 1st year logic circuits that they would teach you in a college or university. i know as i both have been to EE school and have read this book that they are on the same level and are written quite well.

rui luis man ya'll love that little gem don't you :D as far as all the talk about compensation. its quite clear from the datasheets that you need to add this depending on the load being driven..

http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-69.pdf not the lm386 but a good basic understanding of things you can do with the app notes.

http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM386.pdf page 5 shows the compensation. B)

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:D There's 100's of 386 circuits out there...I started the early experiments with Ansil's sustainer mod version...just the chip and 100 uF cap and it worked fine.. B)

This is the circuit I'm using now

champ_amp.jpg

As it happens it is "compensated"... the description in the instructions reads:

A Zobel network consisting of a 0.1uF capacitor and 10 ohm 0.25W resistor prevent high-frequency oscillation from occuring due to long speaker leads

The circuit has a gain of 31 or 32dB. I run a matching preamp by the same designer...or lately a single chip compressor/limiter...mainly to avoid loading down the guitars signal...it will work for sustain with no preamp gain (just as a buffer)

I dare say it couldn't hurt anyone...including me...to sit down for a day and just muck around with resistors capacitors and who knows what, to see what happens...that's probably how the ruby, little gem etc had their birth...aided by a few educated principles.

psw

Edited by psw

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well lets just say i havent had experince in this electronics, but computer electronics. Well also lego robotics, but this thread i am trying to lear electronics. Um, i realized i did need more knowledge so is there an intermediate guitar electronics project that has a bill of materials and schematics that are easy for me to do. Maybe not an amp but a false sustainer box or something.

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It's one thing building a circuit from diagrams. But it's another thing to understand the circuit you've just built. I think thats what everyone is trying to get accross to you.

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i too was going to say this but i dont' want to discrouage the guy. so i am researching a simpler way but by far i have to say rewinding a single coil to get an idea about this is the easiest way i have heard. no offense psw but you have to admit it takes more skill to do what you are doing and the chance of going blind :D

[i knew someone at gibson that they wouldnt' give him a magnifiying glass to cut pearl inlays, and he couldnt' bring his own in due to their reasoning] so i guess monkey man i would suggest what was sugested by the Runoffgroove Groupies [no offense here meant :D ]

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:D Rui Luis

I don't doubt you...I know I've read this post somewhere before (probably in my research). Actually, if you look at my first post on this thread you'll see I did try something like this 10 years ago...

Anyway, I have no doubt that a sustainer could be made in this way...I'm just trying to go to the next step. Especially, getting chords to sustain and to remove the limitations of pickup choice and selection that is a part of all current systems.

Ansil is right! The project I'm working on is not for the faint hearted. I don't even know if my goal is possible but I won't know if I don't try!

Regardless I will continue my mission but I'd love to hear if someone has got this working so I'll check out your disscussion (the other thread went nowhere) to see who pops up

thanks for the interest

psw

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:D Rui Luis

I don't doubt you...I know I've read this post somewhere before (probably in my research). Actually, if you look at my first post on this thread you'll see I did try something like this 10 years ago...

Anyway, I have no doubt that a sustainer could be made in this way...I'm just trying to go to the next step. Especially, getting chords to sustain and to remove the limitations of pickup choice and selection that is a part of all current systems.

Ansil is right! The project I'm working on is not for the faint hearted. I don't even know if my goal is possible but I won't know if I don't try!

Regardless I will continue my mission but I'd love to hear if someone has got this working so I'll check out your disscussion (the other thread went nowhere) to see who pops up

thanks for the interest

psw

keep your good job

Edited by Wix

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I was just thinking what would be cool is having a circuit in place that'd make the sustainer be able to fade in and fade out like on a synth! I think I know a way, but I'd have to draw up a schematic to show you guys what I mean.

What about putting a pair of clipping diodes in the amplifier circuit? Would it make it sound kind of like a square wave on a synth? Heck, maybe have like a fuzz circuit running into the amp that's driving the piezo element? That'd be freaky! :D

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B) Hi Kyle

If I'm not mistaken you've been attracted over from MIMF...great to have some new input into this. Thank's to rui luis for starting that thread!

This is the kind of forward thinking I'm looking for...there is more potential to this than simply sustain...particuarly with this natural synthesiser aspect!

I have found some technical problems with driving strings with square waves, etc. Mainly in that if the phase is not correct it can actually try to defeat the sustain.

You can vibrate the strings in strange ways to produce strange sounds. You can also drive the signal with effects which I've discussed here...flangers sweep the harmonics for instance. I've even been able to produce a strange kind of octave effect somehow where the fundumental and the harmonic spund at the same time!

Down here :D I've been working on a hex piezo pickup and progress is going well. This is needed to drive the individual string drivers and this seems to be the easiest way to achieve this. Additionally you get a kick-ass acoustic system as well!

If you have the patience, it's probably worth going back over the thread and see if you can troubleshoot some of the problems we've encountered and put forward some new ideas of your own

welcome aboard

psw

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:D Suffering Big Time B)

Got a really bad case of influenza

I've just crawled out of bed after three days of hell.

Enough of my problems...

I just thought that we could do a spotter's guide to sustainers.

The best known one i can think of is "I still haven't found what I'm Looking for" by U2 particularly in the intro and first verse. I believe he used Michael Brooks' Infinite guitar for this.

Vai has been seen out and about with fernandes sustainer systems...on his regular Jem and on the fretless neck of a trippleneck jem.

Now, I just got the greatest hits of Van Halen...the new double disc with three new songs. The song "Learning to see" starts with a terrific sustainer section that people might at first think is backwards guitar. This shows how a master can put it to use. I'm surprised he hasn't featured it before since he had a floyd rose version from very early on.

I've seen ebows credited alot but can't think of any well known tracks...

I'd love to hear if people have others

I'll just crawl back to the dark

psw

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what about creating a hex ebow. I mean instead or having to adjust the sustainer for each guitar, why dont you make 6 small ebows and put them together that are spaced out for each string and have a sustainer for each string at once. FEEL BETTER PSW.

Edited by monkey69962000

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...I've seen ebows credited alot but can't think of any well known tracks...

Well,... there is Ebow The Letter by REM :D

Hope you feel better.

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what happened to the new sustainer. i couldnt get the clip to play.??????

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:D I've been so sick.........eerrrrrrrgh...cough ...errrgh...gargle.........throw up..........cough...cough,...aaaaaagh...........will this never end... ^^&*&* cough...

I have contracted a killer influenza...I spent 6 days asleep in a sweat....still having trouble staying upright....this has lasted weeks so have really been out of it.

The last sounds posted were on page 18 ...I did record more but did'nt get to post them....

Still need a hex pickup and have made a number of designs that work...unfortunately I can't help myself getting a little too clever,clever...and the thing gets complicated to prototype.

Of the designs that I have had working, I'm going for one that picks up vibrations from the back of the bridge saddle (strat bridge). It's not a bad sound...high in harmonics (metallic) but easily filtered down, strong output and good separation.

This requires very little to install and has no effect on the action and sound of the instrument itself.

I'm just too sick to put it together............

glad to see their's still interest, thanks ansil

more when I rise from my death bed

B)psw :D

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all hail the mighty psw send the power of the force to him so he may rise from his death bed and proclaim himself ceaser of australia once again.. all hail ceaser all hail psw.

:D

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:DGetting better slowly B)

Thought I'd bring the thread back to life...like a zombie...it lives!

Put together the piezo hex pickup and it works. Basically it's a buzzer cut into six small pieces. After the wires are soldered a thin aluminium plate is super glued to the crystal side of the piezo elements. This in turn is glued to a thin foam which pushes the elements against each saddle just behind where the strings come out of the bridge plate. A plastic sheet holds the foam and the elements in place and the pressure of the strings holds it down.

There are six wires and a ground wire, and for this prototype, they come out just behind the tremolo arm. When the circuitry is worked out thes wires could enter the guitar through a hole drilled in the bridge plate under the saddles and would be invisible.

The circuitry needs to be a kind of mixer with simple filters to tame the high frequencies and hiss. This needs to be combined with a blend control for acoustic out.

For the sustainer, each element's output needs to be further filtered and amplified and sent to a driver.

I have various ideas for digital driving circuits but this will have to wait till I get the analoge version going!

Any suggestions for a very simple low powered buffer/mixer circuit would be appreciated.

Also...is there any way of impedance matching the mag and piezo outputs and blending them passively...such as a transformer. In my fever I had this idea that I could conect the piezo elements to sepatate coils located under a pickup. The pickup would act as a transformer and the signal automatically combined...or am I seriously deluded....

anyhow, thanks for the kind wishes

:Dpsw :D

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B) Back in the land of the living I thought there maybe some wondering what has come of the sustainer...

Well...I'm easily distracted... :D

I put together several hex piezo systems but not quite to my satisfaction...its really hard to cut those buzzers without losing a lot of the crystal layer. I'm still keen to make this happen...I'm impressed with Graphtech's Ghost system and this looks like the perfect pickup system for a hex driver system. I have used their saddles for a while and have been really impressed.

Anyway...so I took my whole strat apart...it's about time...And I was thinking that the spring cavity was ideal to put circuitry in...except for the springs. I had also thought of replacing the bridge rather than adapt the strat bridge as it maybe better to have something purpose built.

The whole thing reminded me of some trem designs I was playing around with years ago. See, untill the last five years, I have always played a Les Paul...a beautiful guitar that I've had for about 25 years. But the Strat is such a good design, lighter and so much fun to play, I must admit to being a convert. I had always coverted the trem too but there's really nothing you can do with the Paul without chopping it up.

Basically I had been looking into a "springless" design so I'm working on a few of these ideas and you may find a thread on this in the near future elsewhere on that. The bridge that I'm working on is modular and treats each string separately. This allows them to be mounted on different baseplates for different guitars. There should be no routing required and the whole thing pretty compact...smaller than a Floyd. I've incorporated fine tuners into the design as guitars like my Les Paul will need to be locked at the nut

I haven't abandoned the sustainer but I'm re-thinking my approach. One reason for taking the strat apart was to take direct outs from the pickups. I have an idea for making a more conventional sustainer/pickup for the centre position and even an idea for a hidden device that will operate through that pickup. The circuitry would be far easier to implement than the hex designs I have been following.

So that's it from the land of sustain for now...I'd love to hear any thoughts on the project or some of these new ideas...meanwhile, stay well as it's no fun being sick!

PSW

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