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Sustainer Ideas


psw

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=o) I'm Back B)

I was getting a little jaded there...spent a week in the rain surrounded by 'roos...good circuit breaker.

I'm also back with a new (well, pentium I) computer with scanner and USB ports so communication should be easier down this end and the explanations of stuff better illustrated...maybe even some photos or sound bytes, we'll have to see.

Meanwhile...I've got a choice of drivers from my experiments. It's time to move onto a way to drive them effectively.

Conventional amplification works but is suseptable to runaway feedback/oscillation. This is reduced by my driver designs that seek to contain EMI but can't eliminated as there would be no force emmitted to drive the string.

Also, using a single pickup to sense multiple strings but the drive singles gets it confused and it is much less effcient.

We had been exploring filters but I think I've come up with some other ideas including a way in which the driver can also be used to sense and drive the string.

So...I've not given up on this yet :D

hope there is still some interest as I could use some help :D

cheers

psw

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Guys if u wanna build a sustainer i herd that if u wind a coil with thickish wire such as 23 guage to about 9 ohms and then hook it up to a thing called a little gem found here, http://www.runoffgroove.com/littlegem.html. u can the get a good sound with the sustain, while also if u use a swithch of some kind( i cant remember exactly how u do it) u can create the harmonic thingy as on the fernandes sustainer.

Hope this helps, plus can anyone tell me how to build a hexdistortion pickup?

Matt

mcmeat14@yahoo.co.uk

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B) Great little circuit link Matt, I particuarly liked the "Ruby" version. We've been using pretty much a similar circuit to test the ideas here.

It's probably true that a sustainer can be made in this way. However, like current sustainers you would probably have to sacrifice a pickup and only be able to use the pickup furthest away from the driver coil due to Electromagnetic radiation. Along with a range of other prob's that I'm trying to overcome!

Since your interested in the Hexaphonic stuff, you may be interested in what I've been proposing with LoveKraft - A Hexophonic Driver. As a driver is similar to a pickup, some of my work has been exploring this field. You would need to preamp the output. Some have made PUp's out of six relay coils. You would need to run each separately into it's own preamp/fuzz circuit then off to the amp.

For everyone else and LK :D , I've got a few commitments holding me back at present but am putting together a Hex version of the CP6x.

I'm having problems getting it thin enough, I've got it down to 6mm, but it is still too high to fit on top of the strats scratch plate. I need to lose about 1.5mm but some components, which I modify myself, can only be made so small.

If you recall, I'm trying to get a device that not only works better and does not alter the function of the guitar (eg pickup selection) but adds to it, I'm trying to make it suitable for just about any guitar without modification. The test instrument being used is a strat and see the driver being DS taped to the pickguard either just ahead of the bridge or the bridge pickup.

Anyways, that's part of why I have'nt posted for a while

keep up the interest, things are still happening

psw

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Cheers psw

that was quite helpful, thing is i dont know how to make the preamp, fuzz circuit, im not that electronically minded. But lets say i wound custom bobbins for each string, so one set being wound with 43 guage and another at 41 guage. would these have enough output not to need a preamp. i tyhought that having 6 seperate coils could mean u could get a better output?

Matt

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  • 2 weeks later...

i was away for a bit and wondered where this got to when i got back! well, psw if you have any new info if would rock! plus pics if poss! the CP8 sounds more promising! but yeah, as lovecraft said try some mild steel. i used this im my amp to cover the transformers, works quite well i must say!

mike

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hi i was wondering if the preamp design you implemented in your project could be suitable for use with a driver such as the kramer floyd rose sutainers, i've recently purchased the driver unit but need an active preamp to rig it up to ive looked at the little jems and ruby amp units and wondered if these circuits would be usable???

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Hi Guys :D

Having trouble at work and trouble with my computer so no time just now! :D

perhaps later this week

by the way

Can you post sounds?

if so, how so B)

also picture of latest HEX prototype and questions answered soon

till then :D

psw

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psw, awesome work! great thread!

posting sound is easy as 3.141592654535........... :D

basically record it, ,and make it mp3 then upload it to www.fullservesite.com and like to it here

if your accound with full serve site (which is free and limitless storage, it rocks!) has the name psw your link sould look like www.fullservesite.com/members/psw/clip.mp3 in ofder for this to work remove /members from the URL so it becomes www.fullservesite.com/psw/clip.mp3 hope this helps!

awesome work as usual!!!

Mike

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:DThanks alot guys

I think I've solved my computer problems ...for now. Not my forte' I'm afraid

Anyways, great to see the interest is still here.

I've been working with LK on driver ideas and have developed a HEX driver based on the CP6x magnetic structure but with micro components. This is still extremely experimental to get it this small. It does want to work, and though I haven't done extensive tests, I think it can be made to work.

It is the first fully realized hex driver and it is my baby at the moment. :D

The image was made on a scanner with the kid's nappy thrown over it and that really is about the size of it!

I've learn't a few things about manufacturing it and I think the next prototype needs to be a little bigger (1-2mm) and longer so that the wires don't foul the trem.

I'm sorry to disappoint, but at this moment I don't wish to reveal how the x series works other than to say that it has a unique magnetic structure as described elsewhere in the thread.

Biohazard - good to see that I still have your attention. I do believe that it could work as a active pickup but would need special (though probably not complicated) preamps for each of the drivers. How it would sound, I'm not sure. Such a system could be used with a analog to digital converter to send midi out. The problem with this is the natural tracking delay caused by the processing speed of the A/D converter (but these are getting cheaper and faster).

I had thought of this (in my wildest dreams!) as I thought, it would be cool to use if only to program a sequencer rather than a keyboard - not in real time - and then apply different sounds to these sequences...

But complicated for now and I now can feel LK's presence reminding me to keep it simple...

If you have the where-with-all to make such a circuit, perhaps we could collaborate on something. Meanwhile, check out the patents, Gibson's got a new one on this that's pretty weird. Since it's active anyway, and you don't have to worry about the real world sound quality, the coils need not be too large. This is an application for which rare earth magnets may be ideal and perhaps I could help you on that. The x series drivers came out of the frustration of trying to wind by hand tiny coils and I have a jar of failed ones to remind me not to do it again.

Perhaps you should look at saddle mounted piezo system like Godin use to trigger the midi signal. I want to work on something like this myself and have had some thoughts.

OK, so I won't tell you how the driver actually works, but I did want people to know that I havn't given up and these things and that they do actually exist.

It will take a bit of fiddling around but thanks MikeB I'll see what I can do to demonstrate that these things not only look cute, but have a sound. The unwanted noises and transitions may give you guys some ideas for fixing them, especially those people that work with amps.

Barney115 - as I recall these are based on the 386 chip as in my test system (unfortunately I can't get my strat on the scanner!!) and are well worth a try. LK propositioned that a lot of the details in the patents were hogwash, if so, it should work in a fashion. I don't think theres much chance of hurting it but don't try driving with a conventional pickup is my advice. The Floyd patent which I listed in my patent links has all sorts of stuff in it. LK's thoughts on compressors and probably noise gates (theres an example from Ansil somewhere on this thread) are also components that may improve things if the amp isn't enough. Where did you get to buy the kramer driver anyway???

Matt - I started getting into this stuff from experiments in pickup designs that used rare earth magnets. There is a thread on this forum somewhere, which I started, regarding them. This mean't I could make small powerful pickups.

Unfortunately it doesn't quite work as simply as that. The pickups output power comes from the number of windings detecting the changes in a magnetic field. While you could make six drivers that together were more powerful than conventional designs (that's not to say they would sound good), you really need a coil the size of a conventional pickup for each string (ie 6 times the size of a normal PUp) to get that kind of individual output. Or am I wrong..hmmm...it would obviously have a low impedance and outputso would have trouble sending the signal down the guitar lead. I did see a guitar somewhere that a guy in england made which had six strat style single coils one running along each string.

I think it was Ansil that mentioned relay coils being used to make one. I remember the original thread from the pickup makers forum. The reason that you need six fuzzes etc is that, as you probably know, chords tend to turn to mush when fuzzed up so that each string is not distinct and therefore need to be treated separately. They may even require separate amplifiers too as the distortion will mush up at the speakers. Fuzz circuits are pretty simple and themselves work as preamps. Perhaps someone can point Matt in the right direction. I'm not sure why you'd want to wind different guages particuarly?

If, like me Matt, you want to try it out anyway and prove that it can be done I have some suggestions. (Partly out of self interest as my driver may require a hex PUp for best results) If you have the ability to wind coils this fine (43 or 41) and can make bobbins...start a thread like this one and, like me, you'll be surprised how many people will inspire you with there 2 cents and keep you interested. Then begin by making single string coils, just as I have been doing with my drivers to see what kind of output you can get. Run it through a stock fuzz box if you like. If you can make it a practical size (you can test them over the top, rather than under the strings) then make up six of them and you're ready to rock. You'll probably sound just like Brian May from queen, or whoever.

Anyway, that took my mind off a very stressfull day...thanks... and read only as much as you want...I just free associate here! It's a kind of therapy!

Good night from Oz...or good morning, where ever you may be B)

psw

P.S. I'll be in touch LK :D

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yea cheers for the post, for now ive done some thinking and i reckon the hex pickup system maybe a little advanced for me at this stage, so im now gonna look at winding my own dimbag darrel pickup. but i haven't much to go on.

anyone know what wire i should use?

Matt

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I don't want to offend or put people off but this thread is on sustainer ideas.

I love to hear about related ideas and contribute where and when I can. Perhaps, start a new thread and place a message here directing people to it if it is related or post me a PM so that I know to look for it.

Otherwise we will end up with a forum within the forum and that's no good if you want a wide range of ideas...

While I'm personally interested, it should be noted that my current sustainer drivers are not like conventional pickups at all. They may have potential in that area or especially perhaps in miniture active HEX pickup design but I can't work on everything at once...

good luck with your projects and keep me posted and in the loop :D

cheers

psw

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:D

Well, sometimes size does seem to matter

The pictured HEX driver has some promise but lacks the power of the x series.

I've gone back to developing the CP8x and had a single driver working without the noise problems of other designs. It's also slimmer than the other x's but I have to modify some components to make it all work so some must die in the process.

Still, all is not lost as I learnt alot from building this one.

I'll reveal a few features of the pictured driver:

It's black and scolloped beneth each string. The base is aluminium which gives a nice silver edge and although they look black, the ends are actually red LED's so give off an evil glow when the driver is on. The method of construction allows for a little bit of flexability so can conform to the fretboard curvature.

I'll be using some of these manufacturing techniques and features on the new driver.stay tuned

psw

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Back again

Looked at the CP8x...simply not as good as earlier designs...CP7x...ok but...The CP6x is probably the best of the x series.

So have redesigned it to produce the CP9x...and here it is...

CP9x.jpg

This is about twice the actual size, the actual driver is 10mm long!

I know how you all like pictures...I'll try to get sounds

bye from oz :D

psw

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:DThanks guys, Im proud of them

Would I sell them? You bet, it's cost quite a bit to get them to this stage in development (although the drivers themselves are not expensive) so I'd like to get those costs back. We discussed this some time ago but patents are expensive and by doing so all the secrets must be revealed. I would be prepared to sell out to a major company but they tend to rip me and you off in the end. It's probably best that I develop it to a saleable degree and put them out to people such as yourselves for a reasonable cost till they catch on and put me out of business...at least I'd get something from it.

As far as making it yourself, they are very small and I wont tell you how to do it so the costs for you to try to work it out, even if you had the knowhow and the equipment would be considerable.

The small size is not only to meet my requirements to be removable and fitted without modification to the instrument. I have a theory that the larger the driver is, the more dispersed the magnetic radiation and therefore the more it will interfere with the workings of nearby magnetic pickups. By making them small I can concentrate the field in a unique way so as to avoid some of these problems.

Once a working design is established a means of effectively manufacturing small quantities needs to be developed. Some of these are already underway as I am mindful of this as I design them. It's no good inventing something that is too hard to make!

Appreciate the interest...keep it up

psw

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3.141592654535

B) Don't trick people into learning pi incorrectly (don't know if that was your intention, but anyways :D ). It's 3.1415926536897932384626 and more, but that's all I remember right now.

About selling your idea, psw, would it perhaps be worth a try turning to Bill Lawrence? He's not a "major company", but still a big enough name to get it out there. My guess is he'd treat you and us better than a major company would.

Edited by G_urr_A
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G_urr_A :D

I have to admire Bill Lawrence...a pioneer and a straightshooter when it comes to pickups, etc. Anyone interested in pickup design should check him out as he dispels alot of the VooDoo associated with pickup design. Lace are another company with innovative ideas...just check out their patents...at least they make an effort to make some progress.

It's still a way to getting the system in a fully working practical design. That said, this new technology, I really believe is a breakthrough completely different from previously proposed systems, and we will eventually get to work.

If any companies are interested in this project, they may feel free to contact me.

For now it's on with the design...

I'm putting togther a Hex version of the CP9x at the moment thats coming up a treat...pics soon B)

psw

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