pebber Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 During the rebuild process of my first Strat (Musima, East German), I did measure the current fret slot positions and when moving up the neck, the offset gets bigger and bigger. I remember having intonation problems in the past, but don't know if this was the (only?) reason, anyway, I wonder if someone has a good rule for deciding when to fill the fret slots and recut them at the right location ?.<br><br> I'll include this pic, visible offset fret slots, and approx these offsets: 5th fret:+0,5mm, 12th fret: +1mm, 21th fret: +2mm offset.<br><br> So, at which offset would you decide to have it recut?<br><br>Oh yes, I do want to keep this neck, overall they used good wood then, but poor workmanship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wademeister Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 Looks to me like you need to move the bridge back by twice the error you have at the 12th fret. Seeing as how the scales are growing apart at regular intervals the way they are, you just have a longer scale than you thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 19, 2004 Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 This should probably be in a different part of the forum, but I don't really care about that. What I see in the picture is extreme, unacceptable. But, what I see also makes me think it must be a scale other than 25.5" (if that's the scale you are using on the stewmac "ruler") There's also the remote chance the StewMac scale is not correct, but if anyone knows of that ever being the case, I'd like to know, because I have that same StewMac ruler, but very seldom use it, since cutting new fret-slots from scratch is something I only do for myself, once in a blue moon. From what I remember, it has checked out fine against many necks I happened to place it against. That neck could have a scale other than those on that stewmac scale, in which case you have some work to do, to get to the bottom of what's going on with that neck. You might just need to measure the distance from the nut slot to the 12th fret slot, double that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebber Posted August 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2004 well, no, when I measure from the end of the nut to the 12th fret, I have +/- 648mm (25,51"), and an offset of +/- 1mm to the StewMac 25.5" ruler (which btw does seem to be quite accurate, measured some of my genuine strats, spot on!). But maybe it's not a bad idea to slightly relocate the saddle position so I have the least (or none at all) of work with the recut of fret slots. I'll make some new ruler templates in between 25,5" and 26" and check the one closest to the real situation. These former DDR's sure knew how to screw up, there was no radius whatsover on this neck and the fretslots weren't cut deeply enough (from the 15th even no depth anymore) on the bass side , but the neck is still straight as an arrow. Thanks for your comments! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wademeister Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 From that pic, it looks like that neck was cut with a reasonable degree of accuracy for a slightly longer scale, like 25.75" maybe? Have you got a pic of the ruler at the nut end also? I'm wondering if you may have had a mislocated bridge and possibly nut on an otherwise properly spaced fretboard. I'l bet she's tight and twangy as can be when you finish up too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Some manufacturers, including PRS, deliberately shorten the distance between the first fret and the nut to compensate for the higher string tension making the fretted notes go sharp. If you remove the nut from the equation, do the rest of the frets fall into line? Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Some manufacturers, including PRS, deliberately shorten the distance between the first fret and the nut to compensate for the higher string tension making the fretted notes go sharp. If you remove the nut from the equation, do the rest of the frets fall into line? Just a thought... Sounds like the Buzz Feiten mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 When I looked at the picture, three things enter my mind about being the problem. They thing I noticed is that each one of the lines was about equal distance from each slot, which could mean either of the following things. 1. It's like Soap and others suggested, it's been modified for Buzz Feiten system. 2. Your not placing the ruler at the right starting location, which could make each slot equally off. You should place the end of the ruler at the bottom of the nut (last place the strings contact before going to the bridge. Don't place it at the middle, top, etc. It must be at the last point of contact, which is the bottom of the nut, or the end nearest the 1st fret, if that doesn't make sense. 3. Someone filed the area off a bit for some reason, and could have been slotted in wrong location. My guess is number 2, but let us know how it turns out. I wouldn't think that the Stew Mac ruler is off though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 2. Your not placing the ruler at the right starting location, which could make each slot equally off. You should place the end of the ruler at the bottom of the nut (last place the strings contact before going to the bridge. Don't place it at the middle, top, etc. It must be at the last point of contact, which is the bottom of the nut, or the end nearest the 1st fret, if that doesn't make sense. My guess is number 2, but let us know how it turns out. I wouldn't think that the Stew Mac ruler is off though. I got nosey and looked for other pics on your page (sorry), this one really looks like the ruler location is wrong! http://users.pandora.be/peter.brosens/proj...star/mlstn1.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdguitars Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 yes my thought exactly. a pic is worth a thousands words... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I got nosey and looked for other pics on your page (sorry), this one really looks like the ruler location is wrong! http://users.pandora.be/peter.brosens/proj...star/mlstn1.jpg looks to me like he's doing it the right way, but it's just not matching up with the scale on the neck. He's got zero right at the nut slot and fret 1 lines up, then everything starts going to hell. I'm too lazy to convert his metric nut to 12th fret calculation, or was it nut to bridge ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorecki Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 It could be the pic decieving me but it really looks like it's into the nut location and the ruler isn't square on the board or in the middle of the board. Wouldn't radiusing cause some differences if the ruler was both not squared and not centered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 I'm no fret-board slotting expert, but in those rare times I use the StewMac scale, I'm usually concerned with the first fret lining up more than the nut position. And, it seems he's got the first fret lined up and " squared" enough to get the proper reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Yeah, after I saw that new picture. I'm beginning to think it's a longer scale length for some reason. I don't know what modifications they do for a Buzz Feiten, but that might be it also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 20, 2004 Report Share Posted August 20, 2004 Just for curiosity's sake, measure the distance at the center line from the first fret to the thirteenth fret - multiplying double that measurement by 1.0595 will give you the scale length (for you mathematicians out there, the actual multiplier is 1.05946309435929526456182529494634, but who's got that resolution available?). If it comes out to 648mm, no help, but if it comes out to for instance 655mm, it could explain it. And, FWIW, moving the nut closer to the first fret to compensate for the extra tension has been in use in Europe since the 19th Century. Not much new "under the sun", just different ways of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebber Posted August 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 wow guys, lot of thoughts here! ok, here are some answers: 1) I've looked at the original pic and it is a bit deceiving, so I took them again:pic1, pic2(maybe again not 100%) 2) To take out any misplacement of the nut, I made sure the ruler matched the 1st fret, but again the position of both the nut as the 1st frets align. Just to be formal, I'm pretty sure the ruler was used correctly (so starting at the end of the nut the nearest with the 1st fret) 3) there were never any modifications made on this guitar (no Buzz Feiten) 4) when performing the calculation suggested by lovekraft, I measure between center 1st and center 13th 306 mm, so the calculation result=648,39mm 5) interesting remark of Gorecki which got me thinking, there was no radius whatsoever first, and now got myself a nice 9" radius on top (made a cylindrical board), so I placed a few times the ruler both squared/center, as in line with the positions of the strings, and turned out the result remains the same 6) I will make today some cardboards for in-between 25.5" and 26", and assemble the neck and body, and see if I find a matching "in-between" scale, so I don't have to do anything -except refret- with the frets.. keep you posted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebber Posted August 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 ok, made some paper rulers with a great little program called WFRET, and yes, I got a match for a scale length of 25.65": [pic3] I don't have any idea if this length was deliberally chosen or not, but now I have only to make sure I get a correct saddle position in the body (and maybe use a slighter heavier string guide of 0.10 instead of 0.09) for better intonation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Good job of revealing the mystery. I don't have my reference books with me, but I'm wondering if that 25.65" scale is a typical classical guitar scale. It would also be good for tuning way down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wademeister Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 Excellent! Now all you have to do is MOVE YOUR BRIDGE LIKE I TOLD YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE, PUNK! Just kiddin ya. When I posted that suggestion it was in hopes that you would be able to get the job done an easier way than what you were considering. That's really good news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebber Posted August 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 yezzz.. it surely is good news! thanks again for sparing me a huge deal of work --> this site -and their members- rocks!!! respect! i'm also anxcious getting it back together and see how much lower I can tune compared to my regular strats. oh yes, I browsed through some of my literature, and appearently this scale length was for sure used on some dreadnought models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted August 21, 2004 Report Share Posted August 21, 2004 We have an old classical acoustic, sitting not far behind me, but the ruler i have here is not good, plus the wife is sleeping and I'll wake her up if I start trying to measure (awake wife puts soap's sanity in jeopardy). But, this thing sounds great tuned down to D flat. I'm pretty sure the scale is just a little longer than 25.5" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovekraft Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 I'm wondering if that 25.65" scale is a typical classical guitar scale. I think you've nailed it! According to Acoustic Guitar magazine, 650mm is pretty much standard for classical guitars, and that's less than a 16th of an inch off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucky1 Posted August 22, 2004 Report Share Posted August 22, 2004 (edited) Edited September 19, 2004 by lucky1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACSpike Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 This doesn't really have much relevance to how the thread turned out, but the title is what got me motivated to answer a question that has been bugging me for a few weeks now: How close to perfect does the fret placement have to be? Here's my quickie proof of concept fretting tolerance calculators page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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