Presidency

[bluespresence]

ski....I wasn't picking you out, your quote just happened to state the sentiment of a lot of people. That sentiment being...if you're rich you won't miss the money. Trust me, I'd miss the money. The whole idea of America to me is to be free enough to work hard and have the opportunity to make it rich some day. If, by chance I do "make it" I certainly don't want anyone coming along and saying "hey pal, you're rich, I'm going to take an extra 20% of your income to feed and insure the 10 lazy bums down the street because they have decided NOT to work hard".

Don't get me wrong, my wife and I give large sums of money to charity and our church. GIVE.....we decide what we can afford and we decide to whom it goes. I don't need some bleeding heart knocking on my door and TELLING me where my money is best spent. I also don't believe that "reaching the American dream" of having money (through hard work) and all that goes with it (a nice home, plenty of food, cars, guitars/basses, amps, 4 wheelers, horses, land, etc) entitles any government to pick me out and decide they can tax me extra because I make more. I earned it, every penny of it, and who is the tax man to take more than the fair share. I don't mind paying taxes and I do (I'm married to an accountant - I have to ) but I should only pay the same share as everyone else.

I think I read in here you were 15 (I apologize if I'm wrong). I'm not knocking your age but experience is a great teacher. Pay taxes for 20 or 30 more years and understand the waste that already exists in government and you'll get it.

Here's a fine example.....I'm married and we have no kids. I live in the country and own a nice home on 20 acres with a barn, pole barn, outbuildings, etc....I pay over $6000 a year in property taxes of which 80% goes to the local school district. That's $4800 a year I pay for a school in which I have NO kids and never will. The school administration here makes $75,000 - $90,000 a year and many tenured teachers do almost as well. The average per capita income in this area is about $37,000 a year. That's a whole lot of money for a teacher in a tiny school in the middle of nowhere, not to mention they only work half as many days per year as you and I and they earn a whole lot more money than most. I don't mind a teacher getting good pay but here they all refuse to do any after school activities unless they get MORE MONEY in addition to the salary they already earn.

The other 20% of my property goes for "services" such as trash pickup, water, sewer, snow plowing, etc. Oh, did I say I live in a rural area???? I have NO trash pickup, I have my own well (I paid for), my own septic field (I paid for that too!!) and no other services except snow plowing on the highway (state highway which is paid for by state and federal taxes - Oh, crap! I pay those too!!), hmmmmm.....looks like I'm getting absolutely squat for my property tax money (rural volunteer fire dept and no cops so don't go there) but they keep taking it. Where is it going? Let's see now I pay state and federal taxes too.....and sales tax too....oh yeah, 54 cents per gallon gas tax for the state and another 27 cents per gallon for the fed plus 16 cents a gallon for who knows who! If I add all of this up I bet my "fair share" is already a good 35-40% or more of my income..........

Oh, and now you want another 10% because I'm "rich" and another 10% because we need a national healthcare system....and then what?

No offense intended....BTW I was actually amazed at how much we already pay once I started writing this and I started adding up all the different taxes!!!!

Now my rear end is feeling a bit sore........

[skibum5545]

Did you read my post? I said I wasn't talking about people of your particular income (and I mean that even more now given your extenuating unfair tax circumstances) but people -well- above you who could not possibly miss the money. Not as a matter of not feeling bad about it, but as a matter of it affecting absolutely NOTHING about their lives.

You're right, I am 15. You can say that means I lack experience, or you can also say that I'm not hardened against the IRS as a sworn enemy; pick your side. I believe that we need national healthcare, and that it will save money by massively increasing the efficiency of the system: preemptive treatment will always be cheaper than waiting for complications, toting the guy to the ER in an ambulance, and then making the taxpayers pay for it. We already have free healthcare, but in the most inefficient way possible.

We need a national health program, but as with anything you run into "not in my backyard" syndrome; everyone wants it, but no one will foot the bill. You already pay for it; now save some money by doing so in an efficient way.

[lovekraft]

Damn, BP, how rich are you?

From what you've said, I'd consider you upper middle class (no insult intended - in fact, congratulations for surviving!), and as such, the unfortunate bearer of the highest tax burden in our system, and I truly feel your pain. The problem is not people like you, it's people (and corporations) who could fund national health insurance out of petty cash without having to do without a single lo-fat latte, like the Hollyweird Billionaire Lib'ruls Federation and the Enron Memorial Golden Parachutist's Club. Of course you can't actually tax those folks, because they'll just raise retail prices to cover the difference, so we'll still be paying for it!

The system needs revision, but I don't feel like I'll live long enough to see a fair flat-rate tax become law in this country. Oh well, I live in hope. Maybe in your lifetime, skibum.

[fehgalloway]

A belayted response to a previous answer...(As stated before, I don't know enough to make an informed decision, so these are just my thoughts and opinions, do not shoot me down)

but see.the main reason is that,if you force people to vote,they will resent it,and the majority of people are uninformed enough that you don't want them voting anyway.

Isn't these people who need to vote? This is a stereotype, but one that we use quite a lot at uni when discussing different social theories. The less educated people are, generally, the less money they have, the more social services they need and so on..the digital divide, access to lower standard education, etc, are usually traits of less educated, lower income people. The government is SUPPOSED to support and protect those who cannot do it themselves (yes i know...it doesn't really happen). If everyone HAD to vote, maybe people would pay a bit more attention, stand up for what they believe in...If the government doesn't even take voting seriously enough to require everyone to vote, then why should people vote? It means that (generally speaking) you get a whole heap of educated (generally wealthier - certain social class) types of people voting only, it's not a true representation. Besides, if you don't vote, then noone has the abiltiy to complain. Anyway...as long as you're all happy...that's fine!

i am not sure what you think it is like over here but i assure you it is not like the "lethal weapon" movies,any more than australia is like "crocodile dundee"

I haven't seen any lethal weapons, but crocodile dundee is a cracker! And there are actually people like that here, they just talk a lot less... and Steve Irwin is a champ, and he is actually that crazy. His park is an 1 1/2 hours from my house! I guess we only get BAD news about the USA and gangs and shootings, etc..if nothing's happening it's not very news worthy is it? The same as you probably hear very little about because nothin every goes on!

The very next thing they adressed was the right of the people "to keep and bear arms". This was so improtant to them that it was the second thing they addressed!

But if that was made 250 years ago, isn't it a bit out-dated? I don't think that anyone has the RIGHT to carry a gun or any weapon at all. If you live on a property, and you're out near wild pigs and buffalo, fair enough, but if no body had weapons, then nobody needs weapons. Just a personal opinion. Besides, Australia's legal system is so screwed, that if you kill an intruder into your house, you're more likely to go to jail - no i'm not joking...The only thing i like about the USA is the sentencing that people get for crimes. Anyway, I think that I'm not going to be convinced about this as much as i will not be able to convince you of it..

I just keep coming back to the idea the our country was founded on the principal of very limited government involvement in the lives of the people

But it's been proven over and over, that without governance, everything turns to crap? Not saying either way is bad, just commenting..Anyone read Animal Farm by George Orwell?

Why does the U.S. think its the police of the world

Here here....! That mightn't be what's true, but it's sure the way it seems....It usually rubs people up the wrong way...

The world has its fair share of people full of hate, and the USA is easy to hate because, well, its the best country on the planet

As previously stated, i think that maybe it's attitudes like that, which people find offensive, not having a go, just observing and commenting.

The health care system is privatized because people do not have a right to health care

Why shouldn't people have the right to health care? I know this is touchy territory, but if you're invalid relative cannot work, has no job, and no-one looks after him/her, then shouldn't they recieve health care? why shouldn't they? Just because of money? Isn't it a sign of a civilised society? one where people are taken care of? First people spoke, then read, then agriculture, then got rid of disease. If a country is full of sick poor people who can't get adequate health care, then what does that say about the country, it's people, it's morals, its government, its society? I disagree, all people have the right to health care. Health care is not something that only rich people can access. Society should have come further than that by now. This isn't the 18th Century.

What if I never need a large scale procedure? Wjhere has all of my money gone?

It's part of living in a community, you win some, you lose some...what if you did need it? what if everyone else said I'm not paying, and there wasn't enough money left for you? People in communities help each other when needed.

I'm not debating whether public or private health care is more expensive, I'm saying that basic human rights, such as health care MORALLY, SHOULD NOT BE PERFORMED FOR PROFIT, It undermines the integridy of such a system, it stops being about people and starts being about money. As soon as that happens, then what do you think they think is more important? They don't care about you or me, they care about their bottom line. So if they can cut a corner here, and cut a corner there, but increase profit by 10%, what do you think they will do? Private health care is better...i'm not arguing with that, and I do have private health care (we pay separately here, voluntarily...no-one gets health care with a job here, that i know of), because the waiting lists are too long, i'm fortunate that i can afford it. If i could not, then too bad, so sad, I suppose. ANYWAY, i'm rambling...

And, another beef on my part. We have a (pretty) good social security system over here. I'm 20, I go to uni full time (12 long hard hours a week;)) and I work 20 hours a week. Last year I wasn't working, I got Youth Allowance, from the government. My parents earn what is classed as a middle income and I live at home. Even with all this, I got given $220 a fortnight for doing NOTHING. I could earn $100 a week without it effecting my youth allowance. I earn too much now, cause I got a real job, but at the time, it's great. If you cannot get a job, they give you the dole. About 5ish years ago, they changed the rules, you had to show you were looking for work, and they brought in work for the dole. People who receive the dole long term and that are able to work fulfill meneal jobs such as cleaning graffiti, picking up rubbish, etc. I think the doel is ABOUT $350 a fortnight - that's not good at all, but it's enough to live on, because you get low income benefits, REALLY cheap medicine. If you have kids and are a low income earner, you get money for the kids, if you're old and don't have an income or enough money, you get the pension, $400 a fortnight, if you're disabled, you get a pension. No matter what, everyone over 17 in Australia should be earning at least $220 a fortnight, without doing anything.

I'm glad I live where I do, I think we're very lucky, and that this really is the best place in the world to live. but that doesn't mean that everyone else isn't lucky too.

Thanks all for the great thread, and for actually discussing this with people who know the answers to my questions, instead of having stupid discussions at the pub with people who have never even looked at the news.

I'll leave you with my philosophy on life.

Everyone is different, everyone should respect that, no body is better or worse than anyone else, we're all equal, and that's how we should treat each other.

[LukeR]

Australia's legal system is so screwed

Excuse you!

hahaha!

Luke

[bluespresence]

skibum5545 Posted on Oct 25 2004, 09:04 PM

Did you read my post? I said I wasn't talking about people of your particular income (and I mean that even more now given your extenuating unfair tax circumstances) but people -well- above you who could not possibly miss the money. Not as a matter of not feeling bad about it, but as a matter of it affecting absolutely NOTHING about their lives.

Yeah ski, I read it and I meant no offense or personal attack on your philosophy. I almost agree with you but....I have yet to see a plan that DE-creases my tax burden while providing a decent system for all. I believe it IS possible and I would love to see it happen but I don't think the clowns running the show can do it with the insurance, pharmaceutical and other lobbying groups lining their pockets with millions.......Fix the real problem first by getting the crooks out of office, limiting terms and getting a real government made up of real people first. By real people I mean somone that has worked and earned a living in their lifetime. I don't believe a career politician or a hand me down billionaire has any idea of what it's like to go to work every day and watch 40% of your paycheck go "bye-bye" before you even get it.

lovekraft Posted on Oct 25 2004, 11:10 PM

From what you've said, I'd consider you upper middle class (no insult intended - in fact, congratulations for surviving!), and as such, the unfortunate bearer of the highest tax burden in our system, and I truly feel your pain.

Yes, I am one of the unfortunate bearer's of the highest taxes in our system and this whole subject is a sore point for me so forgive my ranting....

It just sucks when you bust your butt for 25 years to get to a comfortable income and you see everyone else come along and take it. Like I said earlier I have worked 2 and 3 jobs at a time to get here (except when I was in the service). Even now I work full time (for those benefits I mentioned) plus I run an online business full time. My wife works full time and also works in the family biz 2-3 days a week. That does not include yard work, animal care, volunteer work, church work, etc, etc, etc.....We are not slackers........Now, at this stage of the game I want to relax, but I can't because everyone wants a hand out from my paycheck. Maybe the ultra-rich can afford it and won't miss it, you'll have to ask them. As far as I go you can stay away from my money...........you're taking enough (too much) already...

Thanks for the opportunity to rant....I'll put her in "read only" mode for a while before I bust a vein in my forehead!!

[mushy the shroom]

Ahh!!! No politics here! I've been trying to escape disease of the political cynisist for a long time now. First it killed my sister, then my friends became all-knowing. Now Project Guitar?

Edited October 26, 2004 by mushy the shroom

[AlGeeEater]

At school today we had a mock election, and i voted for Nader

[westhemann]

the health care deal is basically a "all for one one for all" deal and for the people here who dont like that I hope you or one of your loved ones gets bad sick or ran over by a drunk driver who cant pay the medical bills and there for your loved one dies.

this is a good example of crossing the line...i won't name the person quoted but you know who you are.and your post is deleted,genius

[www]

Ahh!!! No politics here!  I've been trying to escape disease of the political cynisist for a long time now.  First it killed my sister, then my friends became all-knowing.  Now Project Guitar?

I agree! Go build a guitar and stop the politics.

BTW I already voted.

[erikbojerik]

Why does the U.S. think its the police of the world

Here here....! That mightn't be what's true, but it's sure the way it seems....It usually rubs people up the wrong way...

I saw this one enough that I just had to chime in.

People who get torqued off about this "world's police" thing really very very badly need to pay attention to history (beginning with those of you who are still in school). The US's role as the world's police came about because of two events - WWI and WWII. Both wars were going nowhere until the US got involved; without US involvement, Europe today would probably be divided up between the sons of Hitler & Stalin, and the only people of Jewish decent left on the planet would be in NYC (although you may not know that there were German subs all along the US East Coast back then, a few even may have gone up the Mississippi River...). Appeasement made it happen and the US stepped in to clean up the mess.

After WWII the US perhaps got a little carried away (see Korea & Vietnam), but who among us can say how far communism would have spread if we'd just sat around and watched? And it was US leadership that eventually strangled communism to the point that the Soviets had to choose between buying food & making bombs.

So where does that leave us today? Afganistan was the only possible reaction to 9/11. Iraq? No one doubts that the former Iraqi leadership was into genocide; that is not a bad justification (see Serbia & Bosnia). What is bad are the times when the US has done nothing; who stepped into the gap to rescue the situation in Rwanda? No one. A million people died. Who will do something about the Sudan? I hope we do.

The US was put into this position by the circumstances of world conflict, and remains there because there is no other option (who else will do it? the UN? NATO? good luck). People (countries) in such positions of leadership will always be targets; it goes with the territory.

[soapbarstrat]

"world police"

Looking more like the Keystone cops these days

[rsera]

I want to clear up a misunderstanding from last night,the post that Wes deleted was mine,futher there was a typing error in it, I do not wish anyone here or elsewhere anything bad or harmfull. What I meant was I hope that the person I was repling to DOES NOT get sick or injured and then not have health insurance.

It was a typing mistake( a rather stupid one at that) and I am sorry if I hurt anybodies feelings,It really was a mistake.

[El Dangerouso]

BP,

Not only am I in your boat, (although I have only worked two jobs for a very short time now; mostly since I figured out I couldn't get where I wanted two with one), but I feel the same; it sickens me that I work for .65 cent dollars. How much better could my life be if I had that money back? Not only that, how much better would the economy be if I (underline underline) decided where that money went? I'm a big, big fan of Adam Smith's, and I think many have lost the perspective on the difference between "free trade" and "fair trade". America, as you, through example, have shown, should be the land of equal opportunity, not the land of equal outcome. I still believe that if you are willing to work, America's system of government / economics will let you achieve. What you have achieved should not be taken away to allow others to come closer to "equality of outcome."

All,

The thing that hurts me most (and this is directed at no one, just something I've noticed in the media) is the "this is so irrevocably screwed up / I hate my own country" mentality. It is not even close to irrevocable, folks. You still live in the greatest country known to man (sorry for my bias to the U.S.). We need to make things better, and we need to work together to do it. Starting out with an "I hate you and everything you stand for; the only things we can expect to come out of your mouth are lies" attitude will just make those positive changes come more slowly. That goes for both sides of the aisle. I think we need to confront the economic and security threats of OUR time, and not turn them into the worsened problems of the next generation. I think we could make more progress if we were all a little less of the ideologes we love to be (especially me). Whether you lean left or right, the problems should be taken seriously and decisive action taken NOW. The right plan agreed upon and followed through by both sides. If that takes some quick comprimise, so be it. I'll take an 80% right plan now over a 100% right plan too late.

For me, I'm coming to a point where I believe the devisive and diometric opposition of the two parties is a big enough problem to override my feeling of supporting who is "right", I would rather have someone who can get enough done to move us, even more or less, toward solutions.

[erikbojerik]

America...should be the land of equal opportunity, not the land of equal outcome. I still believe that if you are willing to work, America's system of government / economics will let you achieve. What you have achieved should not be taken away to allow others to come closer to "equality of outcome."

Well said.

Yes, our government has an astounding amount of inertia at all levels. It is certainly possible to streamline the government without depriving people of a basic safety net; the mistake would be to make that safety net sufficiently comfortable that it becomes a lifestyle.

[bluespresence]

Well said both of you....el-d and ebj!!

In a land of opportunity how fair is it that "The more you make - the more we take"?? Isn't that against everything this country and its basic freedoms of trade and enterprise stand for? To me it completely removes the drive to excel and better myself financially, physically and spiritually. If we're all going to be "equal" then what's the point of trying anymore.........let someone else do the work. (sarcasm alert).

An aside...........

We have a local guy here running for state senate that was involved in his family business as a teenager. He went off and served for 12 years as an Army Ranger then came back to his family business and helped it excel. He decided he was fed up with the bs in politics and decided to run....a long shot to be sure as he was running in the primary against some heavy hitters. He won the primary and is now on the ticket against a career politician that believes in all the garbage we are complaining about here. I wish the presidential race was the same so we actually had someone we believed in to vote for.

[erikbojerik]

A lesson on socialism. True story.

I'm a geologist in real life, and a few years back I was on an expedition to Siberia. We negotiate the Russian travel infrastructure, arrive at our destination near Lake Baikal, only to find that the Russian military had established a 20 mile perimeter around a politician who was on vacation at his villa. Right smack in our study area.

While we were waiting for him to leave, we got to spend some time chatting it up with the locals, who seemed to have lots of free time hanging out with us. When we asked what kind of jobs they had, what they did for a living to get paid, they looked at each other and then one of them said "We sit on our a$$e$!"

Two weeks later we headed home, and never got where we were going.

[Hotrock]

a land of opportunity how fair is it that "The more you make - the more we take"?? Isn't that against everything this country and its basic freedoms of trade and enterprise stand for? To me it completely removes the drive to excel and better myself financially, physically and spiritually. If we're all going to be "equal" then what's the point of trying anymore.........let someone else do the work. (sarcasm alert).

I understand where you are comming from but I don't really agree.

Yeah, the more you make, the more they take.....where else are you going to get the money from, poor people?

To you it removes the drive excel and better yourself financially, physically and spirtually... I would say that my drive to better myself comes from the possability of bettering myself (well not physically because I'm halfway to dissabled and not spirtually as I'm not relegious, but I am a bit of an boardline athiest/agnostic tree hugger ).

I don't mean to cause any problems (or certainly start a flame war, everyone is entitled to their opinions) but growing up below the poverty line I am happy to give back to the state. I've managed to get myself out of poverty by putting myself through university and now I have quite a high paid job (for my age atleast and I get a pay rise next month ) and I'm happy to give back to the state. Being poor really does suck ass and I wouldn't wish it one anyone. If that means that now I'm earning (just about) enough to support myself, my girlfriend (as she's just finished her masters degree and is looking for a job) and my cat then I'm happy to live with a slightly smaller telly and a smaller car so that my money actually goes to helping out those where I used to be.

Well rant over.....Hope no offense caused and none taken

[jer7440]

Hotrock,

You used the system to better yourself, and thats awesome. There are just too many people over here( in the states) who are content to live on what the system will give them. They have no intentions of bettering themselves. And hey, the government ups the paycheck for every kid they pop out. So let's have another child. It just gets to be a visious cycle.

[Hotrock]

Not much different over here. There is qite a big problem in the fact that if you are on benifits and you get a job, the system and dodgy pay of most low qualification jobs mans that you are infact worse off for having a job. Honestly I know it sounds crazy but there you are. Don't think though that means most people have a good living on benifits, we had a summer of eating pretty much nothing but apples off the tree in the back garden (hold on before this turns into an "In my day we had to get up half an hour before we went to bed" Monty Python type sketch).

I also know the lets have another sprog and get more money type scam that people think goes on all the time. I know in some cases that it does, and there are always going to be arseholes who abuse the system, no matter what the system is. Lets take for example my cousin - finally left her boyfriend after he beat her up again (but that's OK because everytime someone in my family sees him in town we kick the crap out of him anyway - what goes around comes around and he's begining to learn not to come back). She's a single mother, wants to get a job but she can't because as sonn as she does she has to pay for child care, house, bills etc and there is noway that she could afford to. She has no choice but to take benifits, she hates it with a passion but there you go what other choice has she got.

And finally, if anyone thinks it's good to be on the dole and not work for a living (I'm talking to you kids) just go up the dole office and see how miserable that place is. I used to go in with my old man and when I was about 14 I decided that I was never going to set foot back in that place again. Just like I said that about warehouse a few years back. I still haven't and I'll be buggered if I will. I'd rather starve, I didn't even claim benifits when I jacked my last job in, the place is just that bad.

[erikbojerik]

then I'm happy to live with a slightly smaller telly

Hehehe...gear post.

[StratDudeDan]

the green bay packers/washington redskins game will decide the presidency.

since 1932, if the redskins lose the week of the vote, the incumbent loses. if they win, the incumbent wins.

so if green bay wins, kerry will get elected. if they lose, four more years of bush. this whole voting thing can just be thrown out.

[skibum5545]

Well, one of the Bush Administration officials said Kerry would when when the Red Socks won the Series....

[jer7440]

So what you are saying is, depending on which sucky football team wins, will decide what sucky candidate we end up with.

[Stalefish]

Humor from my dad:

Dad: "I'm writing in my vote for president."

Kev: "Heh heh....who are you going to write down?"

Dad: "Yosemite Sam."

That's the first joke I've heard from my dad in more than 20 years.

Not bad, eh? :-)

I'm like a week out of date but, hell that's a good one!!