P90 Questions

[Hotrock]

Hold on lads, I've had an idea!

I was originally planning on having 2 HB's on my LP double cutaway but I've had a change of heart (especially after listening to Drak talking about P90's in a Mahogany LP). I'm going to go with 2 P90's but I've got a bit of a problem:

Do any guitars come with two P90's because I don't think I've seen one?

As I'm winding them myself, I was going to wind the bridge pup slightly hotter than the neck to give a bit more oomph, I'm hopeing that it can be "toned down" as I'm having blend pots between pups and not a switch.

Does this sound acceptable? Is it a good idea to wind the bridge about 15% hotter than he neck (which will be standard) or should I stick with the original for both? What size pots should I buy (250k or 500k)?

Finally, Could I do anything with a push/pull pot (that's actually usefull) with two P90's (originally I was going to have HB's with loads of switching options).

Cheers guys

Kaj

[lovekraft]

Les Pauls all came equipped with P-90s until 1957! It's a great sound, I think you'll like it.

[Hotrock]

I thought they just came with the one bridge pup though, not a bridge and a neck.

Do you think it's worth overwinding the bridge pup to make it a bit hotter or should I just leave them alone and make them both standard?

Cheers dude

[Setch]

I'd definately put a few more turns on the bridge - but don't over do it, you don't want to find yourself losing the tonal variation from bridge to neck, just equalizing the volume a bit. Also, be sure to reverse the winding and magnet on one of them so they are hum-cancelling. I don't know how much effect this will have with the blend pot, but the centre position should still be free of 60 cycle hum.

Are you making the bobbins and the lot, or winding on an existing bobbin? If you're making your own, you can alter the polepiece spacing so that the neck lines up perfectly - it always bugged me that both p'ups on the guitar in my avatar had the same spacing.

Oh, and fyi, MYOEG p.13...!

[Hotrock]

I don't know how much effect this will have with the blend pot, but the centre position should still be free of 60 cycle hum.

Well, when I say blend pot I meant to say 1 vol pot for each pup. oops

Are you making the bobbins and the lot, or winding on an existing bobbin? If you're making your own, you can alter the polepiece spacing so that the neck lines up perfectly - it always bugged me that both p'ups on the guitar in my avatar had the same spacing.

I was going to buy them, but I never thought of that. I'll probably make them now.

Oh, and fyi, MYOEG p.13...!

errr............

Oh and what do you think about 10% extra beef on the bridge

Cheers Setch

[Setch]

Sorry, I was being deliberately opaque.

Make Your Own Electric Guitar, page 13. There's a shot of a '52 goldtop, with original trapeeze bridge and 2 P90s. As for how much to overwind - I'd suggest you ask over on the Ampage pickup makers forum. I haven't wound any of my own (yet!) so I'll differ to the guys over there. Lot's of good folks, including Jason Lollar and Stephen Kersting who've got plenty of experience.

[Hotrock]

Ahh, now I'm following. Unfortunately I've leant the book to a mate (which proved a problem when I was about to slot the fret board and couldn't find the measurements )

Yeah, I was going to post over at ampge, I've already hit the LP forum.

Any suggestions on pots as in my head, P90's are halfway between single coils and HB's.

[rick_here]

HotRock-

This might not be exactly on-topic but I have 2 of these:

Kent Armstrong P-90's,

matched-set (both at 9K ohms),

2 inch string-spacing,

Neck pup reverse wound, for hum-cancelling

My plan is to put these into a Tele-Copy (project), pending getting all the other parts & making the final decision on which finish (?). From articles & "reviews" of these pups, including by those who have them...they sound really good; Ppl like em a lot! So I hope I will too...

I had thought about a "blend pot" but ruled that out when I found these:

(at Warmoth on the Parts/Electronics page)

The working plan is to install 2 of these (2 concentric pots) right onto my Tele-Control Plate; they should work, in effect & for all intents & purposes, just like a "Gibson SG" (2 vols., 2 tones, with 1 three-way standard Tele-switch also on the (Tele) Control-Plate).

Though these Kent Armstrong's are perfectly matched (as to their output)...Ppl who have em like em. Personally, I want to try out "evenly matched pups" this time---because I don't always like it when you switch to the bridge-pup & it sounds waaaay too hot. And you have to adjust the vol. It is said that both of these pups, "played together," sound really awesome (more at amazing than hot, per se).

Just some ideas,

rick

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Edited October 25, 2004 by rick_here

[Drak]

If you're going all the way for that classic sound I had mentioned, I would also recommend the use of either a 24 3/4" or 25" scale length.

I think a 25 1/2" scale is much more suited to the Fender sound...too 'twangly' for that classic Gibson P-90 sound.

It's like a soup...you look at all the ingredients that make up a 'sound'...and scale length is a part of it.

Mahogony neck too if you can swing it. Another ingredient...

[rick_here]

Drak-

I can't tell fersure.

Was that post to me?

But even if it was

"To: Hotrock,"

thanx for that FYI-Data (& stuff to consider)....

Edited October 26, 2004 by rick_here

[soapbarstrat]

I think a 25 1/2" scale is much more suited to the Fender sound...too 'twangly' for that classic Gibson P-90 sound.

Sometimes when I listen to some of my recordings, I think a P90 is the perfect pickup for a strat (bridge position, at least.....with a brass hardtail bridge, and who knows what other mods I'm leaving out ?)

[rick_here]

soapbarstrat-

I know lotsa folks are using the Kent Armstrongs in the Neck Position (on Tele's)...for that Olde Tele-Custom sound. Btw, they're available in differing K-Ohms/ Outputs.

Hoping not to side-track this thread; my plan is to use a (brass) Hipshot "HardTail" Bridge on my Tele-Copy.

So do you already have some P-90's?

In a Strat, wow!

(what a concept)

[Drak]

Oh, I'm not saying you can't use P-90's in a strat, it's a popular bridge pkp among a certain crowd.

But that's a different bowl of soup.

Soup you will have, but maybe a cream of potato, not a hearty bowl of chile...dig?

I am talking about a very distinctive sound (soup) represented by the classic Gibson ingredients, and they all matter to get 'that' sound, my opinion.

This can be argued to death I imagine, but I'm not here to argue, you can agree or disagree as it suits you.

Honduran Mahogony body

Mahogony neck

24 3/4" scale

Large® frets

Simple electronics, even minimalistic

Combo TOM/stop tailpiece

1 1/2" body or therabouts, -not- a thick LP body

Semi-warm pkps, but not super-hot. medium-hot at most

All these ingredients play into 'that' sound. Everything combines to give the instrument a certain what I call, 'lightness and brightness' (until you turn it up anyway).

I always equate P-90's with rawness and minimalism (your basic rock n roll sound), they're not something I'd have a 747 cockpit control station on, or be looking for some kind of sustain record with, or any fancy coil taps, or excessive shielding.

With P-90's, you keep it -very- simple and straightforward.

[javacody]

Dead on Drak, I would throw in set neck as well, and tilt-back headstock. Also, for a 50's vintage p90 type guitar, I believe that the aluminum wrap-around tail piece is essential (when talking early gold top or JR/Special), now I've only played one vintage late 50's Les Paul Special, but it was FRIGGEN MAGICAL!!! I've since upgraded guitars with Aluminum tailpieces, and it makes a big difference. Fortunately, nowadays you have better intonatable bridges that are still wrap around and are still made of aluminum (pigtailmusic.com for one).

It all fits together as a soup (great analogy Drak), but for each ingredient that you change, you get further and further away from the original "flavor". Keep that in mind. You will probably get close enough with p90's, mahagony, and a 24.75" scale length.

Last but not least, here is a simple breakdown of Gibson P90 equipped 50's guitars:

Early 50's Goltops and Customs - 2 p90's

mid to late 50' Gold tops - 2 p90's until 57 ( I think the custom got PAF's in 56 and the Standard got them in 57)

Les Paul Jr - 1 p90

Les Paul Special - 2 p90's

I know there were many other Gibson guitars with p90's. Which one had three? (I'm thinking it was a hollowbody?)

Edited October 26, 2004 by javacody

[soapbarstrat]

Soup you will have, but maybe a cream of potato, not a hearty bowl of chile...dig?

no cream of potato here. actually Leslie West's ' Mississippi Queen ' sound (LP junior) is kind of like bathtub full of creamy mashed potatoes. One of my favorite songs, though.

P90 strat has no problem sounding like that salsa at the mexican place that you'd swear will take the paint off your car.

[rick_here]

The Tele-Body I plan on installing these P-90's into is an Ash, Vintage (1950) Broadcaster Style (1 & a half inches thick)....I chose a solid Maple neck to accentuate the highs & possibly add some sustain.

See, I'm kind of experimenting and (theoretically) came up with the thinner body & maple neck for well, umm, Potato Soup...and perhaps a little Leslie West---and garlic---on the side.

"Do you know what I mean?"

I'm mostly Irish-American NEwayz.

Edited October 26, 2004 by rick_here

[LukeR]

What every you do, dont waste your money on the Seymour duncan 'hot saopbar' pickup. It was THE wost thing I have ever bought. Its an overwound P90, with a ceramic magnet. Its horrible clean, and far to noisy when overdriven.

I ended up lowering the pickup as far down as I could to remedy the situation- it was ok- but like a fairly 'yuck' p90.

I would never recomend that pickup to anyone.

I had an original P90 in the neck position (which died) and that was a brilliant pickup. I am sure that it was offended to share the same guitar as the hot soapbar.

Luke

[Hotrock]

Cheers guys. I'm not sure if I will wind them hotter than usual, if it ain't broke etc...

Rick here......Yeah, I thought about them but I've already drilled 4 holes (I like the look) Cheers anyway

Drak......The guitar is:

BODY:

Based on '59 LP Jr with a slightly thinner waist

Mahogany body (with a little chambering)

4A Quilted Maple Cap

About 1.25 inch thick total

TOM/Stop Piece

2 Vol pots, 2 Tone pots

2 P90's maybe standard maybe a bit overwound (in one or either position) but probably standard

African Walnut Electric Cavity Cover

NECK:

Maple:Zebrano:Maple Neck

Fingerboard from same block so Maple:Zebrano:Maple continues all the way down the neck

24.75 inch scale

African Walnut Crown Inlay

Very BIG Tennon (Comes down past bridge and is visable from front and back of guitar)

Angled back headstock with African Walnut stripe running through it

FINISH:

How the hell should I know

Wood pretty much as god intended but covered in poly

So all in all, not too far off what you say would be perfect (all barring the neck anyway). Still think it's a good idea and what about winding the bridge a bit hotter?

Cheers guys, you're all dudes

[Drak]

15% hotter, yes.

But not crazy hot, no.

I can't tell you the amount of times I've read posts about some guy buying a hotrodded P-90 bridge and being unhappy with it, wishing he had bought the normal (slightly overwound) bridge offering.

The brightness and clarity you get from not winding it too hot is part of that P-90 sound that makes it what it is.

Try to get as many tips from Jason Lollar as you can, he seems to be building the best P-90's these days.

I have a P-90 project or two myself coming up, and they will have Lollars in them for sure.

[Hotrock]

Yeah, I've posted over at Ampgein the hope that Jason answers, but nothing as yet.

I have just had a thought though, most of the LP double cuts I've seen just have a P90 at the bridge, is there enough room to have 2 P90s on a 24.75 scale double cut? I think there is but I've just scared myself

I'm also considering winding both pups at around the original spec. The way I see it now, if they had a standard P90 in the bridge position originally then that's probably what I should put on mine (in both positions). Anyone got a problem with this?

And finally cheers for all the help/comments guys, it truely is appreciated

Kaj

[Drak]

For awhile, they did actually have problems with the pkp route cutting into the neck tenon area too severely, causing some neck wiggle, but they wound up just moving the pkp route location back about 1/2" I think to solve that.

[soapbarstrat]

What every you do, dont waste your money on the Seymour duncan 'hot saopbar' pickup. It was THE wost thing I have ever bought. Its an overwound P90, with a ceramic magnet. Its horrible clean, and far to noisy when overdriven.

I ended up lowering the pickup as far down as I could to remedy the situation- it was ok- but like a fairly 'yuck' p90.

I would never recomend that pickup to anyone.

I had an original P90 in the neck position (which died) and that was a brilliant pickup. I am sure that it was offended to share the same guitar as the hot soapbar.

Luke

I'll second that. Fender made a tele several years back. It might have been mahogany, maybe even 24.75" scale and set-neck, but anyway, by the picture of it, you'd think it would have to sound great, but they used the Duncan hot ceramic P90, and it sounded like crap.

Mine is Gibson, but I sure would like to find the time to get at winding my own (or attemting it). My home-brew version would use wood for the bobbin and no wax potting. at least that's the scenario in my head. If that fails (make that 'if' a 'when'), I'll want one from Lollar. I've even thought about making my own p-90 bobbin and seeing if Lollar would wind it.

[Myka Guitars]

I second the idea of a slightly hotter bridge pickup (15% is standard on custom wound pickups as far as I know). I have built 2 P90 eqipeed guitars so far and I love them. The first had a mhaogany body/neck, a koa top, and ebony board. The other 1 had black limba bodies, maple tops, bolivian rosewood neck, and an ebony board. Both guitars had Rio Grande P90s in them; a Bluesbar bridge, a Jazzbar neck, and a RWRP Jazzbar mid pickup.

What I like about P90s is their clarity and bite. A little more volume and you can get them to growl which is awesome. Add some high gain to the situation and you have raw rock and roll. On the clean side of things you can get some great chimy chord tones with wonderful harmonics and note bloom (a lot depends on the guitar for that but the pickups help too). Roll bak the tone and you can get some great jazz tones as well. Both of these guitars I thought of as more blues jazz guitars than anything else but you could get some great rock tones as well.

I like having three pickups to play with. The mid pickup solo is one of my favorites (Hum/P90/Hum would be a great combo). Being able to use the bridge/mid, mid/neck, and bridge/neck cmbos really opens up some tonal territory. The way I wired the guitar the b/m and m/n postions were series/parallel switchable which makes for even more fun. You can get some great fat humbucker-ish tones out of those settings. I used a master volume and master tone on both guitars.

What I would recommend for a two pickup setup would be a simple volume and tone

with a 3-way (you can still use 2 vols and 2 tones with a 3-way too). OR to use that push/pull switch you can go with 2 volumes and 2 tones and have a series/parallel switch so you can get some of that humbucker type crunch and power. The 2 volumes will act as the pickup selector and enable you to blend the tones of the pickups together. A very simple wiring would be 1 vol, 1 tone, a 3-way, and the push/pull series/parallel swicth. You can go a long way with that.

I also second the notion that the mahogany guitar is closest to the true Gibson tone, that and a 24-3/4" scale. Both my guitars were 25" scale for a touch more clarity (less muddiness). I like mud sometimes buit I wanted to try something different (you can still get mud by rolling the tone back a bit). The black limba/maple/rosewood guitar sounds a bit more chimy and musical to me. Again, less of that mahogany mud. I just recently built a humbucker guitar with a mahogany/maple body but with a black limba neck. It has some mud and some sparkle. The neck is a huge factor, I think.

The maple neck will certainly add some brightness and halp round out the tone of the mahogany body. I like this idea. I don't think I would go longer than 25" scalel length though or you might end up with a super bright guitar. But then again maybe not. Tap the piece. If it has more thunk than ping you are probably OK. If it really pings I would go with 25" or less.

[frank falbo]

I'm also considering winding both pups at around the original spec.  The way I see it now, if they had a standard P90 in the bridge position originally then that's probably what I should put on mine (in both positions).  Anyone got a problem with this?

Well, not a "problem" per se.

I would definitely overwind the bridge pickup for a couple reasons. (not "duncan hot" just 10-15%) First, single P-90 guitars are like single pickup Broadcasters. It's the kind of thing where you set your amp for that guitar. So you can get a robust, full sound even though comparatively, its one of the brighter guitars out there. I mean its still better than a strat bridge pickup. But with a two pickup guitar I think you have to consider the guitars functionality as a whole. You don't want to be playing on the neck pickup and then switch to the bridge and feel like the bottom fell out on you. There's only so much you can do with pickup height adjustments.

The only reason vintage guitars had matching pups all across was because they were "first generation." A hotter bridge than neck pup is an improvement. I mean I have guitars with matching pups too, (one has 3 matching ASAT pups-one of my favorites) But even G&L winds the bridge pickup differently and wider. Mine has 3 equal neck pups. The bridge is weak but the combo sounds are awesome so I wouldn't change it. For a fatter sound I can have the bridge and middle in series a la Brian May. If you decide to equal wind them maybe have a series option wired in there. Two equal PAFs is okay too, because the bridge pickup has some meat to it and smoothness whereas a P-90 just cracks you across the face with a crowbar. If you wind them equal you might find yourself reaching for the tone pot when you're on the bridge pickup.

Also if you make a wider spacing for the bridge, keep in mind that there's a little more wire on that bobbin for the same number of turns. So a 10% increase in revolutions is slightly more than that in resisitance. And since a P-90 winds so wide and short, those last turns use vastly more wire per turn than the early ones. I'm just saying if you want 10% more resistance, don't just apply a 10% greater number of turns. Maybe 9% or so.

Part of the reason the Duncan sucks is because the general rule is that a short wide bobbin is more blasty and midrangey, while a tall thin bobbin is clearer and cleaner. So to dramatically overwind a P-90 is to increase harshness, distortion (the bad kind) and you get a garbled, less acceptable sound. Maybe for a shoe-looker using the DOD grunge pedal its okay, but it's generally going to be an unlikeable sound. P-90's have definite limits. If you go beyond that threshold it's like you're asking this little magnet in the center to flow all the way around this fat bobbin. It doesn't make it. So the extra winds are either in low or non magnetic zones and it just sucks altogether.

[rick_here]

Hotrock-

Yeah, I thought about them but I've already drilled 4 holes (I like the look)

I like that too. But already have a standard Tele-Body....

Myka_Guitars & Frank Falbo-

Thanks for all that Info!

And, (btw/fyi,)

I'm still planning on going with the (equally matched set/ @ 9K Ohms) P-90's. I know a guy who has them & likes em. I'm not going for any particular sound (doesn't have to be "Gibson-y" or whatever).

Also I hope to get a thread going specifically about this project (soon).