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Hanging A Guitar By The Headstock


erikbojerik

Is it a good thing to hand a guitar by the headstock?  

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The ONLY relevace that article has is these TWO lines:

"Keep your guitar out of the case. A guitar stand is a good idea as it allows the air to circulate around your guitar."

I've read the article 5 times now. That's the only mention in there.

Your map is right here:

http://www.tremol-no.com/images/hangars/WALL009.JPG

Take a very close look. Do you see the two points where the hangar arms touch the guitars?

Good.

Memorize that.

Now, when you do your test, only touch those same two places on your guitar. Don't touch the headstock, body, wiring, frets or anything else.....just those two points. Trust me- if you're going to do a real test, get an actual hangar. Don't use your fingers as a hangar.

I will ABSOLUTELY NOT get into a discussion with you about LED, aka Blip-O-Matic, tuners. Their accuracy isn't even an option in my book. Cents, my man....cents. I have a $15 tuner that shows me cents.

You're right- this thread isn't about headstocks.

It's about guitar hangars.

Steinbergers are headless? Hmmm...who knew?

The version I read had this part : "One very important thing to remember is never to leave your guitar hanging on the wall in winter. The heat from a furnace rises. While floor temperatures may be 18°C, five feet off the floor it may be 22°C, and eight feet above the floor 27°C! At that extreme temperature, the relative humidity becomes extremely low."

Your guitars are being supported by the headstock on the hanger poles. I had my thumb where one pole is and index finger where the other pole is.

So, you tell me where to put my fingers (which I had exactly did already). then you say I can't use my fingers to simulate the guitar hanging by the poles at that same area with two fingers.

LED tuner was good enough to show that there's a little movement on the neck.

On the neck-jig, if I just press a little at the same locations those hanger rods are, even pushing straight toward the end of the neck, the dial indicator will move.

I like how you forget what's been written, and start thinking some weird s***, like I would be grabbing the headstock to do that test, or touching frets to do it, I guess you could just keep going on and on with wack-job thoughts and misunderstandings like that, can't you ?

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The version I read had this part : "One very important thing to remember is never to leave your guitar hanging on the wall in winter. The heat from a furnace rises. While floor temperatures may be 18°C, five feet off the floor it may be 22°C, and eight feet above the floor 27°C! At that extreme temperature, the relative humidity becomes extremely low."
Damn man. That's the 2nd time today you've posted the exact same thing. Do you really like that paragraph or something? It's just odd because it has ZERO RELEVANCE to this thread.

At all.

Really.

I'm not kidding.

None.

Your guitars are being supported by the headstock on the hanger poles. I had my thumb where one pole is and index finger where the other pole is.

So, you tell me where to put my fingers (which I had exactly did already). then you say I can't use my fingers to simulate the guitar hanging by the poles at that same area with two fingers.

Great. Sounds like you've got the placement down.

Now use a real hanger for your testing.

LED tuner was good enough to show that there's a little movement on the neck.
No, it is not. Not that tuner. Sorry.

On the neck-jig, if I just press a little at the same locations those hanger rods are, even pushing straight toward the end of the neck, the dial indicator will move.
I got that part, but this isn't a neck jig. It's a hangar.

And stop pushing on things.

I like how you forget what's been written, and start thinking some weird s***, like I would be grabbing the headstock to do that test, or touching frets to do it, I guess you could just keep going on and on with wack-job thoughts and misunderstandings like that, can't you ?
How could any of us forget this?

Well, I did the "test" a few minutes ago. Had guitar in floor stand, tuned it, then held it up, with headstock "ears" resting on my thumb and index finger, like the guitar is held in a wall hanger .  When in the hanger position, it went slighty flat.  That would mean it's magnifying the string pull slightly, and causing the note to go slightly flat, which is what I had suspected all along. I stress *slightly* flat, but it was noticable on the tuner.

Now, if it exaggerates string pull slightly, I have to wonder if it also exaggerates climate effect change on the neck.  Forget about me trying to test that out - LOL

It's not wack-job thoughts or misunderstandings. It's simply that you're not using the right gear to run the test you want to do, thus giving you extremely odd results. You post those results and expect us to not question it? Come on.

Again : I said the tuning went *slightly* flat, and it's understandable that when a guitar neck gets a little additional pressure on the headstock, it is likely to change the tuning a slight bit. Like when I have a guitar clamped in the neck jig, with the neck suspended freely, except a dial indicator under the neck, then I ever so lightly just touch the headstock with a finger and the dial indicator moves.

So, you had me wondering if my *slightly* flatted note description was interpreted by you, as something closer to an E note going down to an E flat note ( tuned down a half-step), not just gone off tuning a slight bit.

A little additional pressure on the headstock? From where?!?!?!??!?

Are you trying to tell me that a guitar hangar is attempting to separate the headstock from the neck?

I'm sorry....I tried helping out.

I'm all done here. You guys have fun.

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How in the holyhell does the tuning go FLAT if it's being PULLED on?

This doesn't have FA to do with hangers, but...

90% of the mass of the guitar is behind the plane defined by the strings/fretboard. In a floor stand, the weight of the body is supported by the stand; when hanging, the weight is supported by the neck but on a very stiff "hinge" at the neck joint (with most of the mass behind the fulcrum). When you hang it, that hinge could close slightly due to string pull and give you a slightly flat note.

Attach your neck to the body with a door hinge and that's the mental picture; if you hang it, the body will tilt out slightly because the center of gravity is behind the string "plane".

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Erik- I like your theory. It's a good explanation of what could happen. I would actually bump that number up to 98% or 99% though. There's not much beyond the strings on that facial plane (trem bar? part of the saddles? part of the nut?). Also remember that we're dealing with 100 lbs. or more of tension over a relatively short distance (about 25"). I'm not sure gravity + weight of guitar body has enough to flatten strings, even with your Stiff Hinge theory. It'd be interesting to test out though.

In Soapbarstrat's case, your theory is not where the problems stem from. He was using his fingers as a hangar and a LED tuner; his results would be questionable at best using those methods and tools.

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This is a little off topic (still has to do with headstocks though!) but I figured that this question was real quick, kind of a waste of a thread, and there are most likely a lot of the knowledgable people reading this thread.

Is it bad to leave a capo on a headstock? Like not just during a song, but all the time?

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How in the holyhell does the tuning go FLAT if it's being PULLED on?

This doesn't have FA to do with hangers, but...

90% of the mass of the guitar is behind the plane defined by the strings/fretboard. In a floor stand, the weight of the body is supported by the stand; when hanging, the weight is supported by the neck but on a very stiff "hinge" at the neck joint (with most of the mass behind the fulcrum). When you hang it, that hinge could close slightly due to string pull and give you a slightly flat note.

Attach your neck to the body with a door hinge and that's the mental picture; if you hang it, the body will tilt out slightly because the center of gravity is behind the string "plane".

but since the headstock is actually behind the plane of the neck,and all the hardware and electronics are more towards the front of the guitar,i think that balances it out....otherwise the guitar would not hang level at all i think.

but if you look at a string swing,you will see that the "fingers" of it are actually pointed upwards...maybe this compensates for that?

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I think that this has been the greatest waste of time I have seen in this forum in the last 2 months or so. I can't believe that you guys are actualy arguing about it still. I care a rats a.. if the tune goes a cent to the sharpe or flat side, I care if it will damage the guitar, and enless your house is not climate controlled ie heater and ac and you have a fireplace that you can't control how hot or cold the house gets, I realy don't see a relevance to the point about the temp in the house. I got my guitars both in a stand and hanged, and either way I seen that the guitar has been damaged,

I really really think that we should lay this to rest and use your wisdom on more inteligent threads other than this!

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I really really think that we should lay this to rest and use your wisdom on more inteligent threads other than this!

well to be honest this may be the only question on the forum right now that hasn't already been discussed 100 times before,and even though it may seemsilly to some,at least it has now been discussed,and a guitar hanger tutorial has come out of it,plus pictures of other styles of hangers which you can choose from based on personal preferences.

so even though it may be silly that it has gone on for so long,still some good has come of it.

that is why i usually either sit back and watch these debates,or join in them myself,rather than just trying to bring it to a screeching halt...because some times that is what it takes to get all sides of the issue out on the table

for example...this thread if it wasn't for different opinions...that thread would have never come to be as useful as it is

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"Au contraire" Wes, that thread is very useful and is on a topic that helps build guitars... on the other hand, other than the "tutorial" on a guitar hangar, I see no point in all the aspects that it had turn onto. It might be me, but I think that it's too irrelevant to guitar building, unless you tell me that if I want to hang my guitar once built I got to make sure that both ears are symetrical... if not your low E will be flat and your high E will be sharp once you take it down the hangar after 1 day! I see no point on it., but ...that's me. And no matter what I post or anybody else if people want to add reply to it, they will do, just like the Old thread about all the controversy about the "new rules"

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"Au contraire" Wes, that thread is very useful and is on a topic that helps build guitars... on the other hand, other than the "tutorial" on a guitar hangar, I see no point in all the aspects that it had turn onto. It might be me, but I think that it's too irrelevant to guitar building, unless you tell me that if I want to hang my guitar once built I got to make sure that both ears are symetrical... if not your low E will be flat and your high E will be sharp once you take it down the hangar after 1 day! I see no point on it., but ...that's me. And no matter what I post or anybody else if people want to add reply to it, they will do, just like the Old thread about all the controversy about the "new rules"

and you just added 2 posts to this "useless thread" :D

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And this is 3, but they are irrelevant to the point in discussion, they are relevant to the thread, which is if it is ok to hang a guitar, not if it goes out of tune, or if it gets too hot in the winter.

Dude, you understand what I meant, and I was responding to you! Not a big deal to it, the only thing that I waxs pointing out was that 2 major contributors here were arguing a pointless issue!

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And this is 3, but they are irrelevant to the point in discussion, they are relevant to the thread, which is if it is ok to hang a guitar, not if it goes out of tune, or if it gets too hot in the winter.

Dude, you understand what I meant, and I was responding to you! Not a big deal to it, the only thing that I waxs pointing out was that 2 major contributors here were arguing a pointless issue!

If the force induced by a wall hanger were enough to throw a guitar out of tune, that would not be healthy for the neck, and if enough of a force were applied, could result in damage... which is entirely relevant to the discussion.

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Damn, I shouldn't be writing anything, and I hope no one thinks it's to perpetuate this arguing. I had actually had enough of this forum. I have to admit there are some here who always make me mad off and on. I got so pissed about this thread and what went on between me and Kevin, I went and deleted a bunch of my posts in other threads. I had been tempted to do the deleting before this thread here ever existed, for other reasons, which have to do with things I don't like about the ones who run this place.

Kevan helped me "walk through the door" of being totally fed up.

I guess my comment about his guitars on the floor made him get defensive. And I'm pretty damn defensive. I try to think I'm pretty reasonable, but maybe it's just not so as much as it seems to me.

I made a hanger and got the same results. I didn't look at Kevs tutorial hardly at all, so I'm not sure how similar mine is. I made mine to be "self leveling" on a center screw. But I didn't want to screw it to the wall, I screwed it to a block of wood that had a threaded insert in it, clamped to the edge of a work bench.

Maybe I could post pics, although that's not good for much.

Maybe I should re-post messages I deleted, but I feel pretty worn-out to do that.

Maybe each neck will do something a little different.

I was looking at mine on the hanger and couldn't help but think that kind of storage might help a neck develop a twist.

It's just what I thought, I can't prove it, just like no one can prove the opposite.

Wood can go crazy even if you baby it.

Rob

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Damn, I shouldn't be writing anything, and I hope no one thinks it's to perpetuate this arguing.  I had actually had enough of this forum. I have to admit there are some here who always make me mad off and on. I got so pissed about this thread and what went on between me and Kevin, I went and deleted a bunch of my posts in other threads. I had been tempted to do the deleting before this thread here ever existed, for other reasons, which have to do with things I don't like about the ones who run this place.

Kevan helped me "walk through the door" of being totally fed up.

I guess my comment about his guitars on the floor made him get defensive.  And I'm pretty damn defensive.  I try to think I'm pretty reasonable, but maybe it's just not so as much as it seems to me.

Maybe I should re-post messages I deleted, but I feel pretty worn-out to do that.

Yes you should.

There are several threads that have been destroyed by your editing/removal of your posts. They will have to be deleted because they now make no sense at all.

No one is forcing you to be a member here. You're here because you want to be. If you have issues with the Admin or Moderators here, you should contact them via PM or email, not by posting.

After Kevan saw what you were doing with all the deletions, he not only PM'd you, but he also emailed you (I have copies of both). As far as I know, you haven't replied or contacted him regarding that.

There were no rule violations on either part, and I only see you two testing and trying to find similar results.

I made a hanger and got the same results. I didn't look at Kevs tutorial hardly at all, so I'm not sure how similar mine is. I made mine to be "self leveling"  on a center screw. But I didn't want to screw it to the wall, I screwed it to a block of wood that had a threaded insert in it, clamped to the edge of a work bench.

Maybe I could post pics, although that's not good for much.

Maybe each neck will do something a little different.

I was looking at mine on the hanger and couldn't help but think that kind of storage might help a neck develop a twist.

It's just what I thought, I can't prove it, just like no one can prove the opposite.

Wood can go crazy even if you baby it.

Rob

If you are still wondering about guitar hangars and if they're detrimental to storing guitars, check out: www.gruhn.com. These are hardcore vintage guys who own and work on some of the most prized guitars in the world. They have no problem recommending a hangar on their site.

Any further posts not relating to guitar hangars will be deleted immediately.

Let's keep it on topic, folks.

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  • 1 month later...
Seems that Larivee guitars stated in the owners manual that the warranty will be void if the guitar is stored on a hanger.  Perhaps they can actually tell if a guitar has been stored this way.

LOL, had to dig this thread up again after going to NAMM. Matthew Larrivee laughed pretty good when I told him about this thread too, check out this pic here :D

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1411.JPG

Martin doesn't seem to mind either B)

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1412.JPG

Or Guild......

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1420.JPG

gasp....... even Breedlove! (yes, some are in the freestanding guitar hangars, not all are supported on the bottom of the guitars)

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1424.JPG

Sorry for the crappy pics, but here's the bazillion dollar martin anniversary guitar......

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1407.JPG

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/NAMM%20show/IMGP1408.JPG

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so when you are all doing your tests are the guitars just hanging or are they hanging and leaning against the wall? I could see a minute possibility of problems if they're leaning on the wall but not so much if it is just hanging straight down. if it was leaning against the wall I could see that leading to the strings going flat, turn a straigt guitar into a more C shape so the strings have less tension. sorry if that made no sense but clarification on the wall leaning thing would be nice,

thanx

:D

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Hanger or no hanger, that $1M Martin probably sounds like crap with all that inlay plastered on it!

if you pay 1 mill for a guitar, would you play it? I SURE AS HECK WOULDN'T! haha :D

Edited by sepultura999
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so when you are all doing your tests are the guitars just hanging or are they hanging and leaning against the wall? I could see a minute possibility of problems if they're leaning on the wall but not so much if it is just hanging straight down. if it was leaning against the wall I could see that leading to the strings going flat, turn a straigt guitar into a more C shape so the strings have less tension. sorry if that made no sense but clarification on the wall leaning thing would be nice,

                                                                                                      thanx

Nothing is "leaning".

Everything is (supposed to be) hanging straight down. There are only two points of contact, and those are on either side of the bottom of the headstock. Nothing else is touching the guitar.

Even with the internet at my disposal, I still haven't found a way to get a guitar to go flat by hanging it.

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I didn't get to see this the first time around, but I will put a B.S. in Physics from a fairly top school and M.S. in Engineering from a slighty lesser school on the line here. If you hang a guitar in the manner talked about, it should go sharp (Only while hanging) if anything.

The tension of the strings will cause some bow or relief in the neck. Gravity pulling on the body will increase that tension and will want to "straighten" the neck. This adds tension. Think of it like this: Take a bow you would use for hunting. Try to straighten the wood/fiberglass part. Tough, huh? That's because you're increasing tension. Now bow it more. Easier? Heck yeah, it's lowering the tension. Lower tension=Lower pitch=flat. Higher tension=higher pitch=sharp. If you can bend a string flat, let me know. I know you can't. Not possible.

There might be an exception. If you caused the guitar to swing when you plucked the string to test the tuning while hanging, at the motion at the two furthest points of travel will reduce this tension. However, just from gut feel, it would surprise me very much if it reduced the tension enough to actually go flat. If anything, I would think it would return to normal.

As for the heat gradient argument, I'm not really seeing that either. Guitars, hung vertically will occupy three feet of wall. Was this wall to ceiling distance measured over a ten foot wall, like I have in my house, a normal eight foot wall, or a 20 foot wall in a two story house where the second floor is open to the first? To know if that info is even worth noting, you would have to know that. Also, I would need to know the placement of the room, basement, first floor, second? Location of vents?

Is your head ever hot, while your feet are cold in your house? If they are, remember you are probably about twice the height of your guitar. Come on.

I would safely conclude that most of the arguements against hanging are weak at best, and can be completely debunked at worst. That's some scientific fact. No personal high-fiving or putting anyone down. Those are just the facts.

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