My Finish Dilema...

[bigdguitars]

I need to finish some guitars and I can't do it outside its 30 degrees and I can't bring in my HVLP system cause its really really messy and my shop is only 12x10.

I found this: a recharge able can that I can take to my compressor, this is less messy and it seems like it might work....

http://www.market-plan.com/jcw/2394.htm

what you guys think? LGM?

-Derek

[stageleft]

It all depends on what you are spraying. If its fammable or toxic you still might not want to spray it inside. If its waterbased then it shouldn't be a problem.

George

[Drak]

If you can't do it, you can't do it.

That's reality slappin' at ya.

If you try to do it under bad conditions, you will do nothing but move your project -backwards- and line yourself up for a -lot- of time sanding finishes back off. That is not a professional approach at all.

I notice you said 'need to finish'. Are these for you? If so, you just have to wait it out.

That's what I do.

If this is work for someone else (paying jobs) than shame on you for taking on projects and taking deposits from people and being unprepared to finish them in a timely professional manner. Those kinda people really piss me off and I can't stand them. I hope that's not you.

It sounds to me like you are unprepared to do any finishing inside, because if you were, you would already be set up to do it properly, with an explosion-proof fan already installed and a proper setup to do it. If you're not prepared to do finishing inside in a professional manner, then don't even attempt it, it's dangerous to your health and anyone else around.

[bigdguitars]

I have yet to take on a project for a customer. Won't go that route till I feel that my work can be held up to a PRS and there are no flaws....

no way will I attempt to put on nitro in this weather, know much better than that.

I have three guitars I want to put a finish on and do have an explosion proof fan for when I do little things inside, gramps had one...

I have sprayed inside put only with rattle cans. I was wondering if this was somewhat ok to use...

[Drak]

The most common problem with rattlers and such is that they can spit blobs on you, especially if it's cold, and there it is again, a project heading backwards, hehehe.

Prevals, rattlers, all this stuff can spit on you and in -one- second ruin all the prep work you've done up to that point. One bad spitblob and you just bought yourself several hours of refinishing time in hell.

I have lived that experience over and over and over again. I paid my price, I learned my lessons. I am hardheaded, but even the most braindead fool will tire of repeating his mistakes one day

[Mickguard]

Didn't I see in the Stew Mac tutorial on finishing that the guy was working OUTSIDE --and there was snow on the ground!

I don't remember where it is...I just had a look...an older gentleman...but I believe he said it was something like 25 degrees out....

I'm going to run into the same problem...I'm going to start spraying in week or so and it's getting cold out here too...

[javacody]

Couldn't you spray outside and move the piece indoors to dry?

[Southpa]

Couldn't you spray outside and move the piece indoors to dry?

Not very healthy. If you can smell the stuff then you are breathing poison. And laquer takes a LONG time to gas off. I'm a backyard sprayer too and realize that I won't be doing any finishing work until late spring. And even then there are only certain times of the day when I will shoot a guitar. I learned my lesson when spraying a black guitar at high noon in July...bubbles galore! When I'm done shooting I hang the guitar in my shed for at least a week before bringing it inside. But temperature changes between day and night in spring and fall are just too extreme for any finish to cure properly.

Edited December 9, 2004 by Southpa

[Mickguard]

Couldn't you spray outside and move the piece indoors to dry?

Not very healthy. If you can smell the stuff then you are breathing poison. And laquer takes a LONG time to gas off. I'm a backyard sprayer too and realize that I won't be doing any finishing work until late spring.

Yikes!

I guess that puts my Bocaster on hold for a while...not what I'd planned for!

On the other hand, there are lots of sheds around here (I'm on a old farm)...if I sprayed it outside and hung it in a shed (I can protect it from dust, that's the easy part), do you think it will still work?

It never gets that cold around here --rarely dips below freezing this time of year.

[Southpa]

I guess you might be able to convert a shed for spraying. But I see a bit of effort and expense involved in order to do it with the proper safety precautions. You would need stable warm temperature and good ventiliation. This means piping in warm air and vacuuming out contaminated air. I wouldn't run an electric heater and fan in my spray area...KABOOM! So both units have to be either explosion proof (expensive) or well away from the area with controlled air flow provided. Wear safety approved breathing mask w/ filters (3M brand is good). Remove all flammables in the shed and don't smoke, .

Edited December 9, 2004 by Southpa

[daveq]

Dan Erlewine finished a nice blue quilt for the stewmac trade secrets in the winter spraying outside with rattle cans. I have not tried it myself and don't have anywhere near his experience but I've always thought it was interesting that he managed to do such a great job in such cold weather.

I might be able to find the link if you can't.

Here it is

Again - I have no idea how practical it is to think that a mere mortal can do the same but this is at least one example of someone pulling it off.

Edited December 9, 2004 by daveq

[bigdguitars]

ha ha see Dan knows what he is doing... I don't. When it spits on me I just sit there and cry. I will just wait I guess.

Thanks for the replies!

[daveq]

I was checking into finding places that clear coat professionally recently. I checked with GMW guitars in CA and got a rude response claiming that they don't do top coat only jobs. I thought I saw a price list with clear coating as an option but I guess it's only for a full refinish job.

I can't spray at home right now since the wife is pregnant. I would try the nitro outside if she wasn't but that's my situation. I'll likely be using Tru-Oil for a while instead.

BTW -

I am not even close to being a finishing pro but I have finished several guitars using rattle can nitro. I spray them outside and then bring them inside to dry (in the basement). I have an exhaust fan rigged in a basement window next to where I hang them. Now, I've only done this in the summer/fall so I have no clue what to expect in the winter. I have only had one "spit" on me once and it was my fault - my finger was partially covering the tip. Just wanted to share some experience with rattle cans. It's not a vast amount of experience but like I said - several guitars worth.

Edited December 9, 2004 by daveq

[www]

My Caribburst is on hold until spring due to our lovely rainy winters. It is hard waiting, especially without another project to start on.

[Cloud]

Ask local schools if they wouldn't mind shooting some paint on it for you. There are some of those auto repair schools that you could ask if they want to try shooting paint on it (never know). Alot of times these places will do work for free(minus cost of materials) since its learning experience for the students. The other option is to build a proper spray booth and vent it outside.

[MzI]

I just read through that tutorial on stew mac, its rather odd spraying outside in winter being cold and all, but nowhere does it say about any side effects. The only thing I see would be longer drying times, I however am no expert by anymeans. I am going to try it but with 2 part poly, I have some extra from last summer painting my truck so well see what happens, hopefully itll work because I have 3 guitars to build this winter and I would like to get them done. If it doesnt work I have other options, still I would prefer to do my own spraying.

MzI

[Cloud]

Well I would think its possible for the paint to haze over in the cold.

[Drak]

I can tell you exactly what happens.

1) It takes longer for the finish to dry. I will shoot a coat every half hour in the summer, up to about 4 coats a day max, give or take. A coat is dry to the touch in less than 5 minutes.

In cold weather, the same coat is still drying a half-hour later. It also promotes dribbles in the coat, as since it's not drying near as quick, it's staying liquified longer, and it has time to dribble down. Normally it would be tacking up tight in under 2-3 minutes.

2) Moving a body from cold to warm with fresh finish on it is -asking- for disaster. The wood starts to warm up under the finish, and you know what happens when wood warms up? It gives off moisture, or even just oxygen. Your finish will start to bubble up since the moisture/oxygen wants to come out, but has no place to go, and will form bubbles as it is forced out of the wood pores, but trapped under the coats of finish.

Ask Southpa, he'll tell you. Same thing has happened to me before.

I have experienced all these wonderful things myself.

You guys have fun now, I'll be here with a tissue ready to blot your tears for you.

[Maiden69]

Ok, here is what I'm doing, I don't know if it will work on your case, but... I got a 8x6 shed that is my hide away to work on guitars when it rain or gets too cold, I have in there a 1000W craftsman double lamp, when its about 30 outside, I go out and turn the sucker for about30 min, then go in there. Inside is about 65 or so by then, I also have on the stove a deep pot with water warming up the can with a thermometer set at about 75 degrees almost 80. withthe cans inside (thanks Jeremy for this tip) I plan on getting a hot plate for inside the shed if I make more guitars durinf=g the winter. I take the guitar from inside the house to the shed about 30 min before painting to have it aclimate to the temp in the shed, then take the pot with the cans inside to the shed with me and put my respirator and spray away, during painting, I got 1 lamp pointing to the guitar, and the other close to the pot so the cansa don't get cold. I haven't had a problem with the cans spitting after I started doing this, I think that in the case of paint guns will be different, so I realy don't know how you can apply it.

On the HVLP gun inside the house, I'm working on kinda like a paint booth for indors, it will be as big as 3x2x2deep, and it will have an explosion proof fan at the back, with the back tappered thowards it, and a baffle between it and the painting area and a filter before the fan to catch overspray. I will place this right next to the window and only paint at dawn or night when there ain't people outside. I will have the fan act like a vaccum and pull the overspray to the filter and then to the outside. I got no one with pets around, that way if there is any animal dead will be the squirrels on the front maple tree. But for me this will have to wait until taxes so Ican get my compressor.

[Drak]

OK, I'll make sure to buy TWO boxes of tissues.

And if you're shooting flammable liquids which are atomizing near a heat source, maybe I'll pick up a coffin or two also.

And, next spring, when I hear someone crying about their soft finish, well, I'll have a nice tissue ready for them too, because I know how it feels, I've been there.

[Cloud]

Somehow I doubt it. Unless your spraying with right next to an an open flame I doubt much would happen. Also as long as you have some way of extracting some of the fumes I wouldn't worry much (maybe its just me). As for a soft finish if you leave it with a heat source on it or put it in the oven (turned off of course) since its dry and stays around 90-100 degree (depends on a few thigns like if there is a pilot or if its electric ignition) then you shouldn't worry. But ya spraying and leaving something in the cold is a no no.

Edited December 10, 2004 by Cloud

[Drak]

You, Cloud...

Are one -seriously- clueless person.

And what you just suggested could kill someone.

As in

D.E.A.D.

Thats the kind of advice I love to see given out.

Great Post!

[Maiden69]

OK, I'll make sure to buy TWO boxes of tissues.

And if you're shooting flammable liquids which are atomizing near a heat source, maybe I'll pick up a coffin or two also.

And, next spring, when I hear someone crying about their soft finish, well, I'll have a nice tissue ready for them too, because I know how it feels, I've been there.

LOL

Save one for me, so far even the oens that Ipainted on summer lasted for ever to dry, but I'm sure it was because of too many coats too soon didn't let the first ones dry good. So far the blue guitar got 2 coats, both shot while lst tuesday, you know that big rainy day this week here in MD, and so far it's almost ready to sand and polish... but! I will take your advise and wait until I smell no fumes to sand and polish. But I checked the paint in the hangar and pushed it with my nail and it didn't sink like the last one I did before. Also my house ain't too hot, I keep it at 70 during winter or summer, so from 65 in the shed, it might see 30 for a second or 2 and then into 70, so it doesn't get too warm or cold to haze.

And don't worry about fumes, I already did a test drive of a system like this and it work pretty good. No sign of fumes smell inside the house, my wife will kill me if she found out, and when she got home didn't say anything about it, and she even complains when I airbrush inside the house with Testor paint.

[Setch]

The crack about coffins was black humour, but still very true.

Unless you're hoping to cash in a big life insurace policy don't try what Maiden is suggesting - that includes you Maiden! You might get away with it, or you might be maimed or killed. Any non-waterbased finish dispersed in air can be ignited by even a tiny spark, and is as explosive as dynamite. Your shed, and you would be history.

In short

Perry's bad advice pic used without permission. Sorry.... it seemed appropriate

[Drak]

God you have balls to do that w/o Perry's permission