Three_Views Posted December 13, 2004 Report Share Posted December 13, 2004 After diligently following the procedure for setting up a solid body guitar, I am running into a problem that I hope isn't indicative of major issues. Anyway, the problem is that my high E string is "squelched" when played above the 15th fret...and it frets out when you bend starting at the 10th or 12th. The string functions normally when played on lower frets...and all other strings operate normally. Things I have done: -Adjusted my truss rod so that I have a .25mm gap at the 8th fret on the G string (when held against the 1st and 14th frets). -Verified that my nut height is proper (a little gap above the 1st fret when holding down on the 3rd fret). -adjusted my bridge so that my action is 1.6mm at the 12th fret of the low E and 1.2mm at the 12th fret for the high E. (raising the bridge so that the high E is about 2mm above the 12th is the only way to get it to sing without problems!) -I have also tried shimming the neck to increase my relief without success. Is this problem suggestive of some sort of fretboard/fretwire imperfection or is there a solution? Any and all ideas welcome. The guitar in question is a Yamaha RGX-TT (and is equipped with a Wilkinson VS100 bridge). Cheers, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three_Views Posted December 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2004 Just in case anyone cares, I want to share my bemusing (to me, anyway) solution to this problem...In short changing the string gauge from .009's to .010's did the trick. With .009's installed and tuned to pitch, I could seem to get enough neck relief even when the truss rod was completely slackened (which I thought was strange)...but regardless, that is why I made a decision to try the shim. Although I'm not sure how much more force is exerted with .010's, increasing the string gauge made it now so that I had to lessen the relief by tightening the truss rod. After letting the neck settle a bit, I adjusted the radius of the saddles and bridge posts to an action of 1.6mm on the bass side and 1.2mm on the treble side @ the 12th fret The guitar now plays great with no dead notes...However, I have never witnessed such behavior where the neck requires(?) a specific string gauge. Although I prefer to play with .009's, it doesn't look like it is possible with this instrument. Has anyone else experienced something similar? Cheers, Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted December 15, 2004 Report Share Posted December 15, 2004 What kind of guitar is it? What's the radius on the fretboard? Rounder fretboards (like vintage Fender radius of 7 1/4") have a tendency to fret out when you are bending. High action is about the only way to cure this, other than re-radiusing your fretboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catnine Posted December 16, 2004 Report Share Posted December 16, 2004 (edited) you are working with a very low action here and light gauge strings , part of the problem is the pickup height . if they are too close to the strings as you go higher up on the neck you are lowering the action on any guitar . So if you lower the pickups ( magnetic pull on light strings pulls string down ) in effect this would have done the same as going up in string gauge . Heavier strings also have the advantage or added tension and more mass = more punch and increased inductence . Edited December 16, 2004 by catnine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three_Views Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 What kind of guitar is it? What's the radius on the fretboard? The guitar in question is a Yamaha RGX-TT and it has a fretboard radius of 13.75" (350mm). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three_Views Posted December 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 you are working with a very low action here and light gauge strings , part of the problem is the pickup height ... So if you lower the pickups ( magnetic pull on light strings pulls string down ) in effect this would have done the same as going up in string gauge . A great thought. In this case however, I'm not sure if that theory applied. The neck and middle pickups are both single coils (somewhat weaker pull than a humbucker) and they are set (IMO) low enough so they couldn't exert the kind of pull necessary to cause the problem. I really appreciate the input. Brent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirkentesquire Posted December 17, 2004 Report Share Posted December 17, 2004 If the string is buzzing at the 15th fret but not previous frets and if it's fretting out at the 10th when you bend but not the lower frets it is likely a case of a rising tongue. Your neck/fretboard may have developed a warp in which the action rises at the end instead of remaining the same or even falling away slightly. The only cure for that is leveling and recrowning the frets, as a temporary solution, or pulling out the frets, planing the board, and refretting it. It sounds like you may have lept over the problem with heavier strings, which is fine, but the downside is you are always going to need a lot of relief to play up high on the neck. It just depends how much work you want to put into it. If it's good for you now you might be fine just leaving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octavedoctor Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 If the string is buzzing at the 15th fret but not previous frets and if it's fretting out at the 10th when you bend but not the lower frets it is likely a case of a rising tongue. Your neck/fretboard may have developed a warp in which the action rises at the end instead of remaining the same or even falling away slightly. The only cure for that is leveling and recrowning the frets, as a temporary solution, or pulling out the frets, planing the board, and refretting it. It sounds like you may have lept over the problem with heavier strings, which is fine, but the downside is you are always going to need a lot of relief to play up high on the neck. It just depends how much work you want to put into it. If it's good for you now you might be fine just leaving it. This sounds like a spot on diagnosis and I can't really add anything to it, but I would suggest that if changing to tens was all that was required then the problem is most likely just a high fret. So don't get too alarmed! Also, i wouldn't go much below 1.25mm at the twelfth fret. May I suggest checking the action at the 13th rather than the 12th, witha capo on the first fret? this isolates the effect of a nut that is cut too high, which may affect your reading of the action at the 12th. I often find that once the nut is taken out of the equation the action reads significantly lower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted December 30, 2004 Report Share Posted December 30, 2004 Something to think about. If your truss rod is loose your neck will flex more then you might like. It may be worth the time to remove all relief and straighten the neck with the strings nearly in tune. It won't matter right now if they are perfect. Then check the nut height. Try not to have any more height than the thickness of your high e string. Once you've made that adjustment, if necessary, check how high you strings are above the last fret. It should be a little higher. It sounds to me like you may need to raise up the bridge just a bit, and lower the nut. Also, while the neck is straight, check level across the fretboard end to end. Look for high near where your strin frets out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octavedoctor Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 You're quite right Doug, but according to the spec he quotes in his post his arc relief seems to be spot on so i don't think the problem is there. When I was working for Höhner I was having to set up about thirty guitars a day; you couldn't afford to be precious about these dimensions you just had to get them into playable condition pronto. I used to put a capo on the seventh or eighth fret and play the guitar above the 12th fret, lowering the action until the strings were as low as possible without buzzing. Then I'd move the capo to the first fret and tighten the truss rod until it just started to buzz when played normally in the lower register. Then I'd back it off a touch. This proved to be an infallible way of setting the guitar up and really consistent. If it didn't feel right after that, then there was something wrong. If I had time I'd lower the nut a bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 Octavdoctor, in production you are right. Those of us with more experience may know what to look for right off. However, for someone with less experience, it can easy to become confused and just keep perpetuating the problem by making the wrong adjustment here or there. Guess I was just trying to help create a fresh baseline. Capoing is a good method as you described. -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octavedoctor Posted December 31, 2004 Report Share Posted December 31, 2004 It's like with intonation. I've always done a tempered intonation which references every note on the fingerboard to every other note of the same pitch value. When you start doing it it's as complicated as hell and i've tried teaching it to others without much success, they either get it or they don't. I never use a tuner, just a tuning fork and my ears. I've noticed that every type of guitar has slight differences in the pattern of saddle stagger; Les Pauls have a different stagger to Strats for example, because of the effect of the different headstock shapes on the incremental strain... Anyway, in the run up to Christmas I've had to shift a lot of set ups really quickly and I've found myself short-cutting by setting just two strings by ear then setting the others visually... Seems to work! OK. i know i've drifted off topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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