Gibson-style Neck With Hardtail Bridge?

[Mickguard]

I'm planning on using a real nice gibson-style neck I have here (from an old Morris Melody Maker copy) on my new project.

The original guitar had a gibson-type wraparound bridge --and the neck pocket is angled accordingly.

But I'd like to put a Fender-style hard tail bridge on the new guitar --am I correct in thinking that the neck pocket should be flat (fender style) in that case?

Will this have an effect on the strings at the headstock?

Thanks!

[silvertonessuckbutigotone]

from what i know you dont need a neck angle on fender style bridges, i think the reason is because they are so low

[SawDust_Junkie]

I would agree with Silvertone, and add that I think the reason for the neck angle on the Gibsons and other guitars is to provide enough downward pressure on the strings to avoid having to use a string tree like Fenders do on Strats an Teles.

[Bill-Murray]

No, that's wrong. Fender4me is talking about a headstock angle, we're talking about the actual neck angle. I'm not sure if you need one, if you were wrong I think the action would be crappy and it wouldn't intone right. Not sure about that.

[silvertonessuckbutigotone]

the reason gibson style guitars have neck angle is because the birdge is higher, and since the bridge saddles are higher than the nut, the note made by the frist fret and the 13th fret would be different, basically the action would be higher towards the high end of the neck, and the action would be lower towards the nut. Fender4me, thats the reason gibson has headstock angle.

[Bill-Murray]

The 1st and 13th ARE different. I think you mean 12, unless I'm horribly mistaken. Octaves, octaves, otaves. Try typing that fast 3 times, it's kinda hard.

[SawDust_Junkie]

You're right Bill I did mean the headstock angle, that's just not what I typed in. Sometimes my fingers have a mind of their own ! Sorry if I caused any confusion idch !

Edited January 19, 2005 by Fender4me

[silvertonessuckbutigotone]

1st and 13th are the same, open and 12th are the same 2 and 14th are the same 3rd and 15ht are the same etc, all the way to 12 and 24

[westhemann]

all this can easily be seen by drawing the guitar out full scale side view

but look,even though i am not all that familiar with gibsons,i believe the neck tenon has an angle that you would have to do something about

[SawDust_Junkie]

I may be wrong about this wes ( I'm batting .000 in this thread so far) but most of the tutorials and info I have seen on set neck guitars show that they are built with the angle routed into the mortise where the heel tenon is glued into the body. Therefore the neck tenon should be straight and and as long as the mortise is routed level, there wouldn't be a problem.

(cue one of the masters to step in and tell me what a moron I am, that I don't know what I am talking about and to sit down and shut up !

[ThePlague]

wes - i think he means he's using the neck with a different body. so he'd just wouldn't route an angled pocket in the new body.

[Bill-Murray]

Ahhhhh, you're right silvertone. I was thinking tuning to open. Why'd you say 1st and 13??

[silvertonessuckbutigotone]

because its obvious that 0 and 12 ould be different because open would have no pressure on the strings except for the tuning pressure, 12 has the 12th fret pressure.

[Mickguard]

all this can easily be seen by drawing the guitar out full scale side view

but look,even though i am not all that familiar with gibsons,i believe the neck tenon has an angle that you would have to do something about

←

No, this neck (a bolt on) seems flat....I'll measure it again, but the pocket is definitely angled.

As for string trees, isn't another reason just to guide the high strings over to the side? Anyway I don't mind adding trees, think they look cool.

Edited January 19, 2005 by idch

[screwdelulu]

Yes Idch,

The neck pocket should be flat if you would like to use a fender bridge.

Another way of getting through this is to make the bridge higher, maybe put a nice looking shim underneath it...

[Andy]

If you look at a strat from the side. you can see some of the maple at the side of the neck. this is because it is raised above the body by a small amount (to remove the need for a neck angle)

So for you to requre no neck angle and use a fender style bridge and no neck angle you'd have to workout what height above the body you'd need to put the fret board. (and so how high above the body the neck would be stepped) on my strat copy ther is about 2mm of maple showing. But that won't be consistent for everytuitar..

I'd suggest drawing out a full scale side on view of the whole neck and bridge setup to get the distance right.. Its Explained in Melvyn Hiscock's book "Make your own electric guitar"

[Mickguard]

I'd suggest drawing out a full scale side on view of the whole neck and bridge setup to get the distance right..  Its Explained in Melvyn Hiscock's book "Make your own electric guitar"

←

Okay, I have that book...thanks for pointing this out...

I also have a strat-style neck here, but that one has a maple fretboard and I want the rosewood neck for this project.

[crafty]

Here's the RIGHT ANSWER(S):

NO NECK ANGLE IS REQUIRED FOR A FENDER HARDTAIL BRIDGE.

NO STRING TREES ARE USED ON NECKS WITH ANGLED HEADSTOCKS, EVER. THEY ARE NOT NEEDED ON THESE NECKS.

If you look at a strat from the side. you can see some of the maple at the side of the neck. this is because it is raised above the body by a small amount (to remove the need for a neck angle)

The top of the fretboard is always a little higher than the body of the guitar. This is so the strings can vibrate without hitting the body or pickups. 4-5 mm will probably suffice just fine.

[westhemann]

Here's the RIGHT ANSWER(S):

NO NECK ANGLE IS REQUIRED FOR A FENDER HARDTAIL BRIDGE.

NO STRING TREES ARE USED ON NECKS WITH ANGLED HEADSTOCKS, EVER. THEY ARE NOT NEEDED ON THESE NECKS.

If you look at a strat from the side. you can see some of the maple at the side of the neck. this is because it is raised above the body by a small amount (to remove the need for a neck angle)

The top of the fretboard is always a little higher than the body of the guitar. This is so the strings can vibrate without hitting the body or pickups. 4-5 mm will probably suffice just fine.

←

slightly misleading and simplistic.sorry

if you knew what the guy was saying in the post you quoted you would know that he was talking about the EXTRA amount above the body that the fretboard is raised in order to compensate for the bridge height...on all my guitars that are made in this fashion that EXTRA height is about an EXTRA 3/16" over and above the natural height of the fretboard.

but this is by all means not a hard and fast rule.i have an ibanez sabre(japan)which has a recessed trem which REQUIRES no neck angle,yet they recessed the neck pocket to completely swallow the neck heel right up to the bottom of the fretboard overhang,then angled the neck a tiny bit to compensate.

2 reasons for this that i can see.

1)(i think the most important) comfort.it brings the headstock closer to the players body...less playing fatigue and a better feeling,for me,of being one with the instument.the more playing comfort you have ,the more free you are to let go and perform.

2))this one is more of a subtle thing.)it results in more wood to wood contact in the neck pocket,which some believe helps transfer string vibration better between the body and the neck.

This is so the strings can vibrate without hitting the body or pickups.

seriously.what the heck is this about?i know stating things emphatically automatically makes you an "expert",but come on.

oh,by the way...headstock angle should really be determined by the type of nut you are using.

for locking nuts i am careful to get the proper angle so that after tuning,when you lock the nut,the pitch of the strings does not change.better to have slightle more angle than you need,rather than less,in this case

for standard nuts,i generally just go with about 7 to 9 degrees.

[Mickguard]

  1)(i think the most important) comfort.it brings the headstock closer to the players body...less playing fatigue and a better feeling,for me,of being one with the instument.the more playing comfort you have ,the more free you are to let go and perform.

←

Hmm...that's another good point...especially since this guitar is going to be pretty thick --right now it's at 6 cm (about 2.3 inches)...I might end up planing off a centimeter or so, but not much more than that. It's going to be hollow inside, that's why...

So I'm a bit worried that it'll be a bitch to play if I go with a straight neck.

Here's another question --can you change angle afterwards? Suppose I decide I'll want an angle after all, I should be able to recut the pocket for that, right?

[westhemann]

Here's another question --can you change angle afterwards? Suppose I decide I'll want an angle after all, I should be able to recut the pocket for that, right?

this is not a set neck?

oh and by the way...on gibson set necks the tenon is effectively angled.the part of the neck whick contacts the back(or front i guess depending on your viewpoint...the part closest to the headstock)of the neck pocket is angled to compensate for the neck angle

http://www.dbeweb.com/guitar/images/Neck10.jpg

[Mickguard]

this is not a set neck?

Nope, sorry, I pointed that out after the fact....an important piece of info!

The neck is a bolt on--it's just in the gibson style, same kind of angle thing...the neck comes from a Japanese melody maker copy from the 70s...really nice neck. Too bad the guitar was plywood!

[westhemann]

then yes...you could at a later date deepen and angle the neck pocket if you wanted

[Canuck Brian]

I've done a bit of searching around but i can't find someting on HOW to actually cut an angled neck pocket....

Sorry to hijack but how do you do it?

[crafty]

slightly misleading and simplistic.sorry

if you knew what the guy was saying in the post you quoted you would know that he was talking about the EXTRA amount above the body that the fretboard is raised in order to compensate for the bridge height...on all my guitars that are made in this fashion that EXTRA height is about an EXTRA 3/16" over and above the natural height of the fretboard.

There have been 22 posts so far on this topic. None of posters, besides idch and myself of course, have seem to taken the time to actually read idch's previous posts before responding.

The top of the fretboard on my Strat is 5/16 or 4-5mm above the surface of the body. That is the critical measurement, NOT how much neck wood is showing in the pocket. Fretboards tend to vary in thickness. If I have a rosewood-fretboard Fender neck and a rosewood-fretboard Gibson neck, the thickness of both the fretboard and the entire neck is going to be different. The most important part is how high the top of the fretboard sits.

What is understood, doesn't need to be discussed -- Sammy Hagar, Fresno, California, 1993

My statement about "strings hitting the body and pickups" was my attempt at stating the obvious without making Andy the newbie feel stupid.

oh,by the way...headstock angle should really be determined by the type of nut you are using.

for locking nuts i am careful to get the proper angle so that after tuning,when you lock the nut,the pitch of the strings does not change.better to have slightle more angle than you need,rather than less,in this case

for standard nuts,i generally just go with about 7 to 9 degrees.

He's using a hardtail bridge, not a Floyd, and certainly no locking nut. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that he's going to use the nut or the style of nut already on the neck. Again, nothing to see here.

I swear, I think next time I see 22 posts that wind up getting the original poster nowhere, I'm just going to ignore it and watch the fireworks instead.