Completely Off-topic Poll

[sepultura999]

I'll believe that study when it is confirmed by a source that's not posted on a pro-weed site.

By the way, driving is a privledge, and this is why it ticks me off to hear about these morons that keep driving stoned and drunk.

Probably another reason why teenage drivers are terrible today when it comes to driving, along with their cell phones, and stereo systems being louder than an 18-wheeler driving by. I'm sure if you asked a professional driving instructor, they'd say the driver should not be under the influence of alcohol, weed, or any drug, and no using cell phones. My father was a professional driving instructor and some of his old friends from the business he belonged to wouldn't have a radio on no matter what volume, or allow the wife to talk because they considered it a distraction, which could lead to an accident. You may think that's nuts and/or funny, but it doesn't look good when you're a driving instructor and you get into an accident.

If people want to do weed fine, do it on your own time, don't tell me everytime you see me that I should get into it because it's fun, and don't tell me that it doesn't affect your driving when it is clearly known as a drug (bad or good, it's still a drug), which alters the mind ability. Do you really need a doctor or some scientist to tell you that it's okay or not for someone to drive while under the influence of weed? Just try and have a conversation with a teen that smokes weed everyday, or when they are under the influence of it. There's a few of them at the school I go to and all they can talk about is weed, how fun it is to smoke, and pink floyd. I've met adults that claim they smoke weed everyday and they can at least bring up more than 2 topics.

Medicinal use only for people who actually do need it for their chronic pain, whatever it may be, or as a stress reliever even. If people want to use drugs for recreational use, that's fine, but seriously, for me, there are better things to do in life then to sit around with a joint, having the munchies and laughing at random things.

Do you think that they will ever legalize weed? In Canada they have these rallies for pro-weed and for legalizing it, and they interview the organizer on the news. The guy looks like he hasn't showered in 3 weeks, and unemployed. When a politician sees that, I don't think it impresses them at all.

-Jamie

[canuckguitarist]

It ain't saying it's safe, just that it's safer than alcohol and certain prescription drugs.

←

First of all, I voted undecided 'cause I'm not sure, and even though I'm pretty sure I made the opposite argument on here a while ago, I'll say this anyway.

C'mon, does that point really have any valid reason for legalizing marijuana? Essentially what you are saying is: It's bad, but it's not as bad as some other stuff, so it should be legal.

That argument, if anything, isnt an argument in support of legalizing marijuana, but an argument in support of the outlawing of alcohol and those certain prescription drugs.

...or I could be way off, its still early

[jmrentis]

I believe it's a very valid argument. How are you going to allow a drug that is far worse and kills so many people a day and creates addiction with withdrawls that require the addict to be hospitalized, and not allow a drug that has minimal side effects and actually is a benefit medically. It doesn't make sense. And your right in my opinion if pot is going to be illegal, then alcohol should be illegal. Presciption drugs aren't really relevant being they have medical uses.

But alcohol is absolutely worthless, all it does is poison the body enough so you feel dizzy. Wow that sound like it should be legal to me, Yeah right! There is absolutely no benefits at all with alcohol, so why is it legal? And why are far less toxic and less dangerous drugs like pot illegal. People always try to falsify arguments made in favor of legaliztion, but they can never defend why alcohol is perfectly legal and so readily available, to the point that 12-21 year olds can easily get their hands on it and get killed by overdose or by driving drunk. There is no point at which pot becomes toxic, you can't get sick let alone die from it, and as far as driving goes, pot is not a drug like alcohol, alcohol causes the user to lose inhibition, so even when the user is so drunk that he/she knows that driving would be dangerous, they will attempt to drive anyways because they have lost their inhibition to do stupid things. Why do you think marti gras works? If you walk down any normal street all the girl don't just rip their tops off for you, even if you had a 1000 beads. It's because their trashed, alcohol causes you to do stupid things you will regret. But on the other hand pot is a totally different ball game. Pot usually causes paranoia, creating more inhibition than when said person is sober. So in actuality when the person is sober enough to drive they won't because they are paranoid that they are still too messed up to. Basically the exact opposite effect to alcohol.

So what I'm getting at is pot is far safer than alcohol by any term you can think of. You can't OD, you are far less likely to do something stupid like driving under the influence. And it is far less toxic than alcohol so it won't destroy your body the way alcohol will. Believe me I have alcoholics in my family and they look and feel terrible, their bodies just get eaten away after years of use and abuse. Where as people that smoke pot the damage is minimal except to the lungs, which as I said in my other post there is a pill developed for cancer patients and others that don't want to smoke it or can't smoke it, which the pill is perfectly safe and would not cause any damage to the body.

So someone explain to me why alcohol is legal? It's far more dangerous, and it is a drug that is far more toxic to the body, and it makes people do stupid things they normally wouldn't do. It just doesn't make sense to me. And if they want to outlaw alcohol I'm fine with that, it would be better being that pot is not even comparable to alcohol as a dangerous drug, I think alcohol has nothing but negative effects on all of us, and I don't even drink, I did a little when I was younger but I never understood why everyone enjoyed it so much, it just makes you feel like crap! Anyways that just my opinion! Later. Jason

[Jester700]

Alcohol is legal because

1. It's the drug of choice for the people in power

2. It has a long history, including some nastiness that followed the time it was criminalized

3. It is big business

There is no logical reason that weed & alcohol shouldn't be treated equally. IMO there is a certain need for recreational drugs (though I haven't done more than have a couple beers for maybe 15 years now), but if we actually thought about it there shouldn't be the current vilification of weed. And it could become a cash crop for the government, while becoming cheaper & safer for buyers.

And the whole illegalization of medical use is criminal in itself - some politicians need to catch a little cancer and be denied relief, IMO. But who thinks anymore? Much easier to agree with the suits and slur the mantra "drugs are bad, m'kay?" over a half empty bottle of Jack...

[sepultura999]

The last thing we need is another prohibition on alcohol. Think of all the police you need to put on stoping homemade brewries. There isn't enough police as it is according to officials, but they could be saying that because to them there is never enough. I am not sure.

In Toronto, here in Canada, the police force has a special drug squad, and they are so busy taking down grow-op houses filled with marijuana, that they don't have enough cops and resources to concentrate on other drugs like crystal and cocaine, which is rising in usage with teens. I think if prohibition was brought in again, the cops wouldn't even bother. Heck in Toronto if you are smoking weed some of them don't even bother, from what my friends tell me.

Where as people that smoke pot the damage is minimal except to the lungs, which as I said in my other post there is a pill developed for cancer patients and others that don't want to smoke it or can't smoke it, which the pill is perfectly safe and would not cause any damage to the body.

It doesn't just cause damage to the lungs. Click here, this site is pro for weed, but it gives both sides. It tells you everything you need to know, including dangers and concequences of overusing it. And they have already brought up the issue of people eating it in whatever form. It doesn't work. You don't get the same "high" effect which is what you need in helping the cronic disease. The site link I gave you talks about all of this. The two most common reasons, if not the only, for people wanting medicinal marijuana released is to help cronic pain from a disease, or help prevent a certain illness and/or disease from taking place. The site link I gave you talks about all of this. The reason why marijuana is so dangerous for the lungs is because there are no filters on it like on cigarettes. You can buy disposable filters, but people don't want to, because you don't get the same high effect, and I do believe it prevents what marijuana is supposed to do, therefore making it less effective.

I'm not sure where I heard this, but I heard some country (I think Britain, i'm not sure) legalized a drug that is considered illegal here, and the usage in the drug has effectivly dropped. Maybe I had a dream about it and don't know what I'm talking about, so just ignore me then if I am wrong

If it does get legalized in Canada, they're either going to do it like the Netherlands where people can grow it, only up to 5 plants (I think that's how it is) and only for personal use, no selling to others. Or, they will control marijuana like they control alcohol here in Canada. It'll be government owned, and to get it you have to go to a special store owned by the government, in which all profits goes to the government, which they use for public spending either in education, health care or something else, which will then cause grow-op houses to effectively drop, putting more police resources on drugs which cause much more damage like cocaine and meth.

-Jamie

Edited July 18, 2005 by sepultura999

[StratDudeDan]

Legalize it, then have the government tax the living bejezzus out of it. Charge twice as much as you would for cigarettes, and it'd still sell. Put the same type of vehicular laws around it as alcohol to restrict anything dangerous.

Honestly, though, if the American government system were to legalize marijuana, not only would they then make a boatload off of its sales, but that would also do quite a good amount elsewhere in the world. Cartels would spring up out of nowhere at first, but then settle into a general regime where things were monitored and supported by governments, instead of being at war all the time. The supply would be much less dangerous, as the FDA could put restrictions all over it, so you'd pay for your weed the same as cigars. You pay more, you'll end up with a better quality smoke, you pay less, you get the stuff that comes in a plastic wrapper, etc.

That would then open up ease of use for medicinal purposes as well.

And just so you all know, I am not a smoker of the happy grass. I'm actually against it personally. I really prefer to avoid it at all costs. It just makes far too much sense to have it sit and go to waste while people kill each other over maintaining it.

[jmrentis]

The last thing we need is another prohibition on alcohol. Think of all the police you need to put on stoping homemade brewries.

I think the prohibition was so bad because people were so addicted to it that when they started having withdrawls they freaked out and used any means possible to get their hands on it. The withdrawls on alcohol are very bad, it is actually the worst one along with drugs like xanax. Both of them will cause bad seizures when abused then stopped. This withdrawl will make people very desperate and will do most anything to get some, and they will be very angry and dangerous for a while.

Where as pot has no physical withdraw. When you stop you don't start shaking and sweating and vomiting. Pot has little in common with all the other drugs out there. It is able to be used straight off a plant with no processing only some drying. It's not man made in a lab, it isn't cut with anything, it can't kill you, so again why is alcohol legal and pot not. Pot being the lesser of two evils get a bad rap, for reasons beyond me. I don't smoke or drink so I have no agenda here but when I see something that is unjust I put my opinion out. Instead of trying to tell us why pot is so bad, try explaining why alcohol is so good? Give me reasons that alcohol is so beneficial to people? And why it is considered so much safer than pot? I highly doubt there is one good reason or benefit for having alcohol.

I liked this and it's 100% true

  Alcohol is legal because

1. It's the drug of choice for the people in power

2. It has a long history, including some nastiness that followed the time it was criminalized

3. It is big business

None of which are good for us, it's just another political subject. It's bad for us but since we like it it's legal for everyone. Pots safer but since we don't like it, we are going to call it a drug and make it illegal. Perfect sense! The one that is less bad for you is illegal because it is not as commonly used by certain people, the certain people that have the power to make it illegal. Oh well, one day people will learn, hopefully! Common sense is a very hard concept for most people to grasp obviously! Jason

Edited July 19, 2005 by jmrentis

[Jester700]

Honestly, though, if the American government system were to legalize marijuana, not only would they then make a boatload off of its sales, but that would also do quite a good amount elsewhere in the world. Cartels would spring up out of nowhere at first, but then settle into a general regime where things were monitored and supported by governments, instead of being at war all the time. The supply would be much less dangerous, as the FDA could put restrictions all over it, so you'd pay for your weed the same as cigars. You pay more, you'll end up with a better quality smoke, you pay less, you get the stuff that comes in a plastic wrapper, etc.

←

What cartels? If they legalize the growing of it here, complete with government inspections like most AG industries, you know who the biggest grower will be? Philip Morris. After all, why just tax the selling here and give all those profits to other countries? With a new industry comes new legislation, and they can limit imports.

Plus, think of the growth of associated industries - new textiles based on hemp, and a healthy growth in the eye drops and packaged snack food industries.

[skibum5545]

If the large cigarette companies realized that they had the entire infrastructure set up for the production, packaging, and distribution of marijuana, and diverted advertising and legal costs and man-hours to lobbying the government for legal pot, how long do you think it would take for even the most conservative government to legalize pot? I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that it'd be legal within a year of the lobbying starting.

Guys, the war against pot really isn't, and in fact really never has been, about the right or wrong of smoking it, or even the health repercussions. If those were truly the issues behind the matter, alcohol and tobacco would have been made illegal far sooner than marijuana.

It started as a big business deal between corrupt government and the paper and synthetic fabric industries (specifically Hearst and DuPont), and is now a combination of business with alcohol, tobacco, and large pharmaceuticals, as well as simply not having to admit that the government has been wrong the whole time.

Jmrentis, sheer addiction cannot possibly account for the change in the type of people drinking during prohibition. It wasn't just that the alcoholics kept drinking; the amount of the population who drank (in public, anyway) increased dramatically, and women started to drink much more openly. It wasn't that everyone was addicted so much as it was that drinking was the cool, daring thing to do-- precisely because it was illegal.

I'm not saying that decriminalizing pot will cause the number of pot-smokers to decrease; it will simply shift the total number of smokers to a much more responsible crowd that does it for reasons other than simply breaking the law.

PS-- Oh, and don't get me started on hemp. That plant alone could do wonders to improve the environment singlehandedly, as well as actually improve the quality of quite a few products now in production. For everything you've ever wanted to know on the subject, read Jack Herer's The Emperor Wears No Clothes. Also, for an informative and -very- interesting read, check out Reefer Madness: A History of Marijuana in America by Larry Sloman, which chronicles the history of marijuana from its most ancient days through its introduction in America around 1900 all the way into the pro-legalization movements of the late 1970's.

PPS-- Also, if anyone is interested, I just finished a 5-page term paper for AP US History on the story behind how marijuana was outlawed (including citations, footnotes, and sources for those of you who believe such a paper must be untrustworthy and skewed); if anyone interested in reading it (and knows where to host it), I'd be glad to put it up.

Edited July 19, 2005 by skibum5545

[sepultura999]

The quote things weren't working, so just look for the bold

I am not saying that alcohol is better than pot. I am just stating that if you are going to make alcohol illegal, and waste the police force's time and resources, then by all means, go ahead, and watch other crimes go up, which is exactly what's going on right now with pot and grow-ops in Canada, which is why cocaine and meth are being used nearly as much as pot.

"I think the prohibition was so bad because people were so addicted to it that when they started having withdrawls they freaked out and used any means possible to get their hands on it."

Don't think so. People smuggled it in, the word got around, people were willing to pay for it because they believe it was a freedom to drink whatever they want.

Where as pot has no physical withdraw. When you stop you don't start shaking and sweating and vomiting. Pot has little in common with all the other drugs out there.

Everything has physical withdrawl. If you were to stop eating meat and become a vegan, you'd get sick because you feel the effects of your body not intakeing something it's acustomed to. Those who do it for the sake of animals may not feel the actual craving to eat the meat but they still do suffer from withdrawl temporairly. And those who do it for health reasons and couldn't care less about the welfare of animals, still feel withdrawl, but for a more long-term period. Remember, being a vegan is not eating dairy or meat, and this includes more products than you could think of. That's just one example I am giving

Here's a list of drug withdrawl symptoms.

http://www.marijuana.com/marimed/ch3_t2.html

If you still believe that you can't have withdrawal with weed, I suggest you stop right there, because that site is all for medicinal marijuana, and there are most likely people who just smoke it to relax on that site. This site tells you everything you need to know on both sides.

It is able to be used straight off a plant with no processing only some drying.

So is cocaine and opium. Cocaine grows in columia and other south american nations, the reason why people die from it is because it's laced and laced and laced with meth, and other chemcals. The chances of you dieing from an OD are much higher in this case.

It's not man made in a lab, it isn't cut with anything, it can't kill you, so again why is alcohol legal and pot not

Look up homemade alcohol on google. You can take a can of frozen mccain juice, mix it with water, put it in a closet for 5 months, and you'll have the cheapest wine right there. Is that man made in a lab? Not really, it's juice mixed with water mixed with humidity.

Someone posted earlier why pot was made illegal in the united states, also there was a show done on either discovery, or the learning channel starring Woody Harrelson called Grass. Alcohol is big business, like cigarettes, and the fact is, it wasn't created in the first place to be abused, and this is where Wes is right. People who don't drink responsibly face the consequences, just like anything. If you don't take care of your guitar, expect it to be broken.

When doing studies they compare responsibilty to abuse, and this is one reason why alcohol is legal still. More people are responsible with alcohol, than people who abuse it, wheras with Weed it's becoming more and more abused. This is why I believe medicinal only, however if it was ever fully leagalized, I wouldn't complain or anything.

Pot being the lesser of two evils get a bad rap, for reasons beyond me.

I agree, but they've done shows on why, and someone posted in the beginning of this topic about how it became illegal in the united states and all.

Instead of trying to tell us why pot is so bad, try explaining why alcohol is so good? Give me reasons that alcohol is so beneficial to people? And why it is considered so much safer than pot? I highly doubt there is one good reason or benefit for having alcohol.

Is there a benefit to having pot legalized? Only for money making purposes. Is there a benefit to having pot legalized for medicinal reasons only? For helping people cope with there illness and disease, and in Canada with free-health care, that costs the government, and they won't make any money of it. Why are soda drinks beneficial to people? Should we ban those too since the average north american drinks 5 cans a day, which is 30 grams of sugar in a can, which a lot of officials are saying leads to an increase in diabeaties? Should we ban all caffeinated drinks like soda, including tea and coffee because caffeine is a drug, and when the average consumer stops drinking coffee they also suffer from a temporairy withdrawal? I am not saying these things are worse than pot or alcohol, but are they beneficial? The reason why these things were created and/or discovered was for alternative to the things we consume everyday. In the last 20 years people are finding out how bad cigarettes are, same with alcohol, and same with weed, including the good things it has to offer as well. Same with caffeine and everything else we eat. The benefit to these, when they were discovered/created was to offer a choice when consuming daily meals, and it was never thought to have been abused, it is only now in the last 50 years we are discovering the harsh effects it has.

I agree with skibum here. Hemp has many benefits, and it is a complicated issue to a certain extent. The thing is though it will become legalized eventually. Our former prime minister Chretian said he'd try it if it ever became decriminalized or legalized. Bush has admited to doing it along with cocaine, and his daughters have admited to doing it as well.

-Jamie

-Jamie

[borge]

It is able to be used straight off a plant with no processing only some drying.

So is cocaine and opium. Cocaine grows in columia and other south american nations, the reason why people die from it is because it's laced and laced and laced with meth, and other chemcals. The chances of you dieing from an OD are much higher in this case.

do you know how much refining and chemicals are needed to turn cocao leaves into cocaine or poppy resin into heroin? and the physical quantities of the raw materials needed are LARGE.

but thats beside the point

IMO weed is by far the safest recreational drug

there have been ZERO known overdoses and theoretically you need to eat 4 POUNDS of bud to OD if you have any idea of the physical size (not to mention price) of that amount of weed you will realise its impossible.

and as for all the talk about bias in research from pro weed sites (take note wes) take a look at newscientist.com (the worlds #1 science and technology news service according to them) imformative unbias research with similar results to the "pro weed" sites.

have a think about this:

how many people can you name that have died from alcohol or alcohol related causes?

how many people can you name that have died from dope or dope related causes?

edit: it seems newscientist doesnt let you read whole articles anymore, barstards

oh well you still get the jist

Edited July 19, 2005 by borge

[crafty]

Here's a brilliant, well-thought post from someone who has experienced the "indirect victim" side of drugs, including marijuana:

Drug users are fsking idiots. No sarcasm, no smileys, nothing. You use drugs, you are a worthless human being in my book. If the mods want to give me a two week vacation for it, fine. Here's the real deal.

One of my friends and his mother were killed by a driver high on "only" marijuana. I still remember walking past his seat at my high school graduation 8 years ago and seeing the flowers on it. Last summer, I worked at a prosecutor's office on cases where parents would spam out their children to support their drug habit. I remember the pictures of the beaten and abused kids and it still wakes me up in the middle of the night sometimes. You can quote me every single godamned study on the benefits of marijuana, and I'm still going to call it bullsh*t, because that's all it is.

You want to use that sh*t? Fine. Have fun killing yourself and try not to take out anyone else in the process.

[sepultura999]

Uhhh, I don't think Wes was going against weed to alcohol in terms of death.

The article which discusses driving under the influence of weed being okay, is total b.s, is what he is saying.

And he's right.

You don't need a scientist, or doctor to tell you that. Marijuana is a DRUG, whether it's illegal or legal. If people are stupid enough to get stoned and can't control their speech, one of the easiest functions that a human can do, what makes you think they can control their ability to drive?

Straight from the source:

"For most people the primary adverse effect of acute marijuana use is diminished psychomotor performance; it is inadvisable for anyone under the influence of marijuana to operate any equipment that might put the user or others in danger (such as driving or operating complex equipment)."

http://www.marijuana.com/marimed/ch3.html

Under summary and conclusions.

Yes it says dangerous and complex equipment, but that is what a car is. A car can be a dangerous piece of equipment. 100 may be a small number, but it is lethal when in mp/h or km/h coming into contact with anything. If you still don't believe me, ask a driving instructor whether it's okay to drive under the influence of weed. Just because you or someone you know smokes it and they say they're fine when driving, doesn't mean that it is, and it's obvious that they've been doing it too much that it's causing their ability to even think clearly.

Like I said earlier, weed is the safest recreational drug right now, and it should be legalized for medicinal purposes, and if it were to be legalized completely, I wouldn't argue. However, you have to keep control of what you are doing by setting limits and boundaries, like everything else. This is why people get pissed off with alcohol and driving, just like weed and driving, cell phones and driving, and many other things that involve driving. Driving is a priveledge. A liscence may be easy to get, but it can be even easier to have it taken away.

-Jamie

[borge]

Here's a brilliant, well-thought post from someone who has experienced the "indirect victim" side of drugs, including marijuana:

Drug users are fsking idiots. No sarcasm, no smileys, nothing. You use drugs, you are a worthless human being in my book. If the mods want to give me a two week vacation for it, fine. Here's the real deal.

←

so just about every great musician is an idiot? hendrix,morrison,all of the beatles,SRV,cobain i could go on all day (and night)

[sepultura999]

Crafty I'm sorry to hear that stuff. That kind of stuff really hits hard at home, however I know people right now that NEED marijuanna. They are against it, but they need it simply because if they don't take it they have to be bed ridden and not live an everyday life, or take another drug which is not as effective with much more serious side effects. This doesn't mean they drive under the influence of it though, because people that do use it for medicinal reasons are MORE responsible than those who don't. If you think that someone who is dieing chooses to take marijuanna instead of the more chemically made drugs which is a huge profitiable industry in the Western world, which can cause more damage and not be as effective, therefore adding the current problem on top of the side effects, well, that's just pretty shallow, sorry to say.

And this is why I agree with medicinal only. I really don't see the point in drugs for a personal high. I don't see the point of getting together with friends on a weekend to get drunk, and/or high. And I especially don't like hearing how teens and adults use it when driving. Weed is not my cup of tea, or my idea of fun when there's millions of other things to do out there other than that. I have never tried it, and I won't try it until the time comes where I need to rely on it other than the other perscribed drugs out there.

The best high is doing something you love whether it be guitar building, performing on stage, going to work, or just living your life everyday, etc.

PS: I don't know if anyone saw this Dr. Phil episode (yeah he's a bit of a moron, but my mom watches him and the computer is beside the tv roughly), but they had a teen on who was addicted to cough medicine and almost died a few times from ODing on it. It's going to be wonderful to see the day when the stats show a huge amount of people dieing from it, and comparing it to marijuanna.

-Jamie

Edited July 19, 2005 by sepultura999

[jmrentis]

One of my friends and his mother were killed by a driver high on "only" marijuana. I still remember walking past his seat at my high school graduation 8 years ago and seeing the flowers on it.

I'm sorry for your loss truly. There is nothing worse than losing a friend or loved one. But I can pretty much promise you that for every one person killed by a pot related accident(where pot is the only drug in their system), there will be like 100 killed by alcohol. So I hope you don't drink at all, otherwise you are even worse than what you describe. Again I'm sorry for you and Dan for your losses. And I can see why you feel so angry about pot, but I think it goes beyond the weed itself, there were other bigger reasons that could be contributed to the accident.

Last summer, I worked at a prosecutor's office on cases where parents would spam out their children to support their drug habit. I remember the pictures of the beaten and abused kids and it still wakes me up in the middle of the night sometimes.

As for this I don't believe it, I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I don't believe anyone would do something that severe for some pot. Crystal, meth, crack, heroin maybe but not pot. If thats what you saw or what you were told thats fine but I just don't believe pot is the culprit in that situation.

Anyways I assume you want alcohol banned right? I hope so. Because if your think pot is so bad and has no benefits you should take a look at our society and how diluted we are that alcohol is totally cool and fine. And don't assume that since it's legal people will automatically be responsible, sorry it doesn't work like that. A good chunk of the people that binge drink are younger and young people are not responsible, sorry to say they are not. Just looking at stats you can see how much more of a risk they are, so put alcohol and that risk together and you have the making for death. Sucks but it's true. So basically anyone that thinks pot should be illegal for recreation and medical use should also be trying to get alcohol banned also, being that it is worse and causes far more accidents and deaths by a long shot! But I know almost all those people drink, why? because it's socially acceptable which is crap to me!

Again I'm sorry crafty for your loss, but I believe that it is a small number of accidents that pertain to pots involvement. I think legalizing will decrease this number even more. People will feel safer in their homes and not have to smoke outside of their house. They won't have to worry about the cops being called on them. Right now it's illegal anywhere, so why would you want to be caught at your house, thats the worse place to be caught, they then can search your whole house among other things. So people feel safer driving around and smoking or hiding in a park somewhere, which they then have to drive home from. So legalizing will do a lot of good things for all of us. Make us safer on the roads. Now we just need the breathalizers on the ignition of our cars. I think this would cut down on dui related accidents by a lot. They should be on every car no matter what. I am much more worried about being killed by a drunk driver than a stoned one. And there are far more drunk drivers than stoned drivers, so if we are going to do anything it needs to be some more strict regulations on alcohol or ban it altogether. Later guys, Jason

[Guest gsr-guitars]

Here's a brilliant, well-thought post from someone who has experienced the "indirect victim" side of drugs, including marijuana:

Drug users are fsking idiots. No sarcasm, no smileys, nothing. You use drugs, you are a worthless human being in my book. If the mods want to give me a two week vacation for it, fine. Here's the real deal.

One of my friends and his mother were killed by a driver high on "only" marijuana. I still remember walking past his seat at my high school graduation 8 years ago and seeing the flowers on it. Last summer, I worked at a prosecutor's office on cases where parents would spam out their children to support their drug habit. I remember the pictures of the beaten and abused kids and it still wakes me up in the middle of the night sometimes. You can quote me every single godamned study on the benefits of marijuana, and I'm still going to call it bullsh*t, because that's all it is.

You want to use that sh*t? Fine. Have fun killing yourself and try not to take out anyone else in the process.

←

That's terrible to hear. Sorry.

The problem is there's no road side test (that I'm aware of) for people being stoned. Alcohol is legal and causes far more road kill - but we can, at least, do a road side test and arrest the perps - hopefully before it's too late.

As per legalisation... I'm all for it. The origins of the drug being illegal come firmly from politics - not science or morality.

Cheers,

Gary

[ToneMonkey]

Well, I've not posted in thread for a while as i was getting peoples backs up. It all looks like it's calmed down a bit so here goes:

I couldn't really care if it was legalised or not. It's decriminalised over here, but it's not legal. I smoke, quite a lot to be honest - I'd say that there's probably been about 10 days in the last few years that I haven't. I'm not saying it to try and be big and cleaver, that's just the truth. If it was illegal, then I'd still do it. I just don't want to lose my liberty in these so called "free countries" because I like a smoke.

I find it hard to see the truth in the fact that smoking dope is harmless. Unless you're smoking it with a vaporiser then your still breathing in plant. Smoking with tobacco is obviously a stupid idea. Smoking British hash is also a bad idea (because it's crap). Drinking is a bad idea etc etc.

If I stopped, would I live for twice as long or would it just feel like it?

[crafty]

My post stands where it stands. I really wasn't expecting so many respectful responses, but I thank you all for that. Drugs and alcohol have caused nothing but trouble in my life and those I care about, so that's why I guess you'd say I'm so highly polarized about it.

I don't care if cancer patients smoke weed. I really don't. What I care about are young people getting into a lifestyle that will lead to nowhere but trouble.

I graduated from law school this year. I wasn't the smartest cat in undergrad but I knew I had to avoid some of the temptations of college to even get into law school. I had some friends that smoked up and drank all the time. Some came out okay, most didn't. I remember one guy in particular who started out "just smokin' some chronic" and wound up moving into white and crystal. By the time I was done with undergrad, he went from the 4.0 gpa student who I'd ask to help me with my accounting homework to a washed-out, walking corpse of a shell of his former self. He wasn't the only person I knew in college like that, and he wasn't the worst.

I'm truly not kidding or making this stuff up. This stuff can kill you and hurt everyone around you. If it works for you and you never get into the harder stuff and you never hurt anyone else, great. But I'm willing to bet that you won't make it that easy.

As hendrix, morrison, all of the beatles, SRV, cobain, yeah, they were all idiots when they were on the stuff. How many of them are still alive out of that group? 2 out of 10. Jimi, Jim, and Kurt all died from substance abuse and SRV, Lennon, and Harrison managed to clean themselves up before they died. As for Jimi and Kurt, look at that waste of life and talent. What would have come had they lived to write another song?

[sepultura999]

I don't care if cancer patients smoke weed. I really don't. What I care about are young people getting into a lifestyle that will lead to nowhere but trouble.

Exactly same here. I go to an alternative school, and before I go any further...

An alternative high school in Canada is not where low-grade kids, mentally challeneged kids, or kids in trouble with the law attend. It's a school where a student chooses to go to for an alternative way of learning, in my case, it's a lot like university. You go to your class, you're there for an hour or so, you get your homework, and you work independently. Independent study.

At this alternative school there are some of the brightest kids I've met, and some of the dumbest. There's one guy who smokes weed everyday, and all he can talk about is weed and pink floyd. He told me he wants to learn how to build guitar amps and possibly become an electrician. Something about that just scares me, not because he smokes weed, but the fact that he smokes weed EVERYDAY. He can barely speak proper without slurring or doing those HAR HARRRRRRRRRRR laughs. I dropped the class that he was in and I didn't see him until the last week of school where he was telling his teacher why he hadn't attend school for the last 3 weeks. He was having respitory problems in his lungs, couldn't fall asleep at night and it was hard for him to breathe. So let's recap here. It says that 1 joint of marijuanna is equal to 22 cigarettes.

365 joints of marijuanna a year

x 4 years of highschool

1460 joints of marijuanna in 4 years.

x 22 cigarettes

32 120

The kid in 4 years has smoked equivilent, if the study is correct, up to 32 120 cigarettes. GEEZ! No wonder your lungs are crap. I wouldn't be surprised if you got cancer by 20 if you keep it up.

And this is the problem. Those who want it legalized will be fighting an uphill battle, where the hill continues to become steeper and steeper. More kids that do marijuanna now, are doing other drugs (I am not suggesting it's a gateway). The problem is when politicians see that, they come to the conclusion that it is a dangerous drug then. That's my 2cents at least.

-Jamie

[lovekraft]

Jimi, Jim, and Kurt all died from substance abuse and SRV, Lennon, and Harrison managed to clean themselves up...

Hang on a second, crafty - Kurt died of a shotgun blast (that may or may not have been self-inflicted). And SRV, Harrison and Lennon may have cleaned up, but they're still dead. Unless you can causally link marijuana use to attracting stalkers and causing both bad weather and brain tumors, your argument is pretty much spurious. I sympathize with your personal tragedies, but I have to dispute your conclusions in this instance. I guess we'll simply have to respectfully agree to disagree.

BTW, good luck on the bar exam next week - knock 'em dead!

[jmrentis]

I just don't understand! Why is alcohol ok and pot not? Alcohol is a far more dangerous and leads to so many more deaths! It doesn't make sense, alcohol is a drug, a worse drug that is very toxic. So any laws that pertain to alcohol should be a little less severe for pot. Why would you allow the worst drug and then not allow the one that isn't nearly as bad? So instead of everyone explaining why pot should not be legal and why it is so bad, try and give some reasons alcohol is ok to be legal, and why it is so safe for everyone to drink! If you want to treat pot the same as alcohol that would be fine, but even then you are going overboard because it is not nearly as dangerous as booze. We are backwards, pot should have the regulations booze has and booze should be treated like pot! It's like charging $100,000 for vw bug and $100 for a Benz. Makes as much sense. Someone please explain, I just don't understand and I consider myself to have quite a bit of common sense. So please explain it to me. Later, Jason.

Ps: Crafty, no worries I can understand why you got upset. That isn't an easy thing to deal with, losing someone close to us is terrible, I know.

[sepultura999]

Here's what I said earlier...

Why are soda drinks beneficial to people? Should we ban those too since the average north american drinks 5 cans a day, which is 30 grams of sugar in a can, which a lot of officials are saying leads to an increase in diabeaties? Should we ban all caffeinated drinks like soda, including tea and coffee because caffeine is a drug, and when the average consumer stops drinking coffee they also suffer from a temporairy withdrawal?

I am not saying these things are worse than pot or alcohol, but are they beneficial? The reason why these things were created and/or discovered was for alternative to everything else we consume everyday. In the last 20 years people are finding out how bad cigarettes are, same with alcohol, and same with weed, including the good things it has to offer as well (with weed at least). Same with caffeine and everything else we eat. The benefit to these, when they were discovered/created was to offer a choice when consuming daily meals, and it was never thought to have been abused, and when it was abused, no one thought it was bad for them. It is only now in the last 50 years we are discovering the harsh effects it has, and since it's grown so rapid in the last 50 years, banning it will only create more problems, because it's considered taking someones personal freedom away.

If someone ever comes to Toronto (not sure about all of ontario), you will not be allowed to smoke in ANY building, unless it is legally documented as a Club. You think it happened overnight, to ban smoking in restauraunts, bars, and any building for that matter? It took 20 years! Now there is a motion to outlaw smoking and driving (it could pass), and there is a group that wants to ban smoking from Ontario. Banning smoking in a whole province, will never EVER happen because of the money it generates, and the fact that it is considered now to be a right, and/or freedom for anyone over the age of 19.

I agree with you that pot is the lesser of two evils, but they will never outlaw smoking or alcohol. The only thing that can happen is tougher penalties. Mothers Against Drunk Driving wants it so that if you drive drunk, and are caught, you lose your liscense for a year, if you are caught driving drunk again, you lose your liscense forever. If you read into the historical facts on pot, I'm sure you'll find why it's all backwards dude.

-Jamie

[psw]

I was gonna save my $.02...but I suppose I'll give it $A.01...

Alcohol, pot...all these things are dangerous if you're behind the wheel of a car. Studies, where tests (ie they were taken to hospital) on drivers (down here) found culpable in serious accidents have discovered a huge proportion (way over 50%) have been effected by drugs (of various kinds).

The development of roadside tests to detirmine the influence of drugs (including marijanna) have come a long way. Trials are taking place down here and I believe they will be broadly implimented in the same manner as alcohol tests.

Studies have also shown direct links from the use of "pot" to the development of schizophrenia and other mental disorders. There probably requires that there be some predisposition, as the amount of use is not necessarily a factor. However, as in the above survey many people who "smoke" (or other drugs, including alcohol and perscription drugs) do end up committing suicide.

Now "use" may be happening as a result of an underlying problem or disorder, however the drug use in no way helped these people when they needed it most...the effects are delusional (that's the whole idea, right), but that's not a helpful state for people to be in when they need the help the most.

I can personally say that I've know people who have suicided after both a long or even short (binge) of marijanna.

I didn't vote and this isn't an opinion...my personal opinion is not hardline...but I do believe that these are the facts and that there are many people who suffer in a cloud of smoke...who never re-emerge...

Out of change...

psw

[Southpa]

"You know what killed your uncle?! Drugs, booze and women! Thats right, thats what killed him, DRUGS, BOOZE and WOMEN!!!!"

...

"Yeah, he couldn't get any so he shot himself!"

-Benny Hill