hendrix2430 Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Hello, I just got a one piece alder board that has a nice grain, which I plan to make a tele body out of. I would also like to finish it transparent, maybe adding a bit of dye. Having never finished a body before, I would like some advice from those who have. I'm looking to keep the look of the grain, but make the body darker looking, similar to a blonde walnut tint. I would also prefer to only use some oil and a clear coat over, that's it. Here's what I'm wondering: -Since I would like for the grain to show, I shouldn't use any grain filler, correct? ***As I understand, alder can absorb a good amount of finish. -How many coats of oil should I apply to get that darker look? -Should I mix the oil with a darker dye? -How long should I wait inbetween coats? -Should I sand the body between coats? ***To make the finish look smooth and shiny (not overly shiny), what type of finish should I use at the end? -How many coats? -Should I rub in between coats? Thanks a lot for the support! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 8, 2005 Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Alder is used these days by a lot of cabinet shops as faux cherry. Most of the time its going to turn at least a little red. You may need to darken it a bit to kill the red. I'm not sure what exactly blonde walnut would be 'cause I think of walnut as brunette. One thing about alder is that to my eye it always has a little bit of a cloudy look to it no matter how you finish it. I can tell it from cherry across the room. If you fill the pores the grain will still show. The grain is caused by the growth pattern of the tree. Variations in living conditions, mineral contents, etc. What you fill with grain filler is the open pores in the cell where the machining process has cut them open. Alder has sort of medium sized pores, as opposed to oak or ash which both have craters. You can stain it. let it dry (depends on what you use as a stain as to how long) and oil finish it. If you like a matte finish oil can serve as a top coat. Three or four coats. Read and follow the threads. Reading is good for you. Any other questions just ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2005 Alder is used these days by a lot of cabinet shops as faux cherry. Most of the time its going to turn at least a little red. You may need to darken it a bit to kill the red. I'm not sure what exactly blonde walnut would be 'cause I think of walnut as brunette. One thing about alder is that to my eye it always has a little bit of a cloudy look to it no matter how you finish it. I can tell it from cherry across the room. If you fill the pores the grain will still show. The grain is caused by the growth pattern of the tree. Variations in living conditions, mineral contents, etc. What you fill with grain filler is the open pores in the cell where the machining process has cut them open. Alder has sort of medium sized pores, as opposed to oak or ash which both have craters. You can stain it. let it dry (depends on what you use as a stain as to how long) and oil finish it. If you like a matte finish oil can serve as a top coat. Three or four coats. Read and follow the threads. Reading is good for you. Any other questions just ask. ← Hi I've been told that dyes don't really work well on Alder, and that I should instead spray a clear sealer and then a translucent color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibum5545 Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 You're probably thinking of ash. I've never heard of any problems dying alder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 9, 2005 Report Share Posted March 9, 2005 Dyes and stains work fine on alder. But then, I dye and stain ash without a lot of trouble. A lot of it is in how you do your prep. I don't like to sand the wood with much finer than 180. I've found that getting it too smooth is as problematic as not getting it smooth enough. If you use the dyes that are referenced in the various other threads and take your time you should be okay. Alder does have the annoying tendency to develop fuzzy spots that just stain weird. Just part of being an organic material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Dyes and stains work fine on alder. But then, I dye and stain ash without a lot of trouble. A lot of it is in how you do your prep. I don't like to sand the wood with much finer than 180. I've found that getting it too smooth is as problematic as not getting it smooth enough. If you use the dyes that are referenced in the various other threads and take your time you should be okay. Alder does have the annoying tendency to develop fuzzy spots that just stain weird. Just part of being an organic material. ← Thanks so much guys, I decided to get a result like this, only not as milky, just dye, not actually paint. I want to wipe on a very thin coat of poly. Then I plan to apply a few coats of dye for the desired shade, sanding slightly between them. To finish off, I want to spray some a few coats of poly, and then perhaps polish the whole body at the end. Am I thinking right? If I wanted to spray a solid color, should I follow this process, only to replace the dye by the paint? Thanks you SO MUCH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 (edited) This picture is a butterscotch blonde on ash. It's basically a lacquer lightly pigmented and sprayed. The results would be different on alder. I don't think you could get this with dyes, alder is brownish-redish. If you want a sort of orange/blonde color on your guitar you would probably have to bleach your wood first and dye orange then lacquer/finish on top of the dye. Nothing stops you from doing butterscoth blonde if you want though, check reranch.com to see if they've got spraycans of the right color. Edited March 10, 2005 by Phil Mailloux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 (edited) This picture is a butterscotch blonde on ash. It's basically a lacquer lightly pigmented and sprayed. The results would be different on alder. I don't think you could get this with dyes, alder is brownish-redish. If you want a sort of orange/blonde color on your guitar you would probably have to bleach your wood first and dye orange then lacquer/finish on top of the dye. Nothing stops you from doing butterscoth blonde if you want though, check reranch.com to see if they've got spraycans of the right color. ← Thanks Phil, I got a one piece blank from a wood shop here in France (near switzerland). It's a luthier wood which is really high quality. Check the website: http://www.bois-lutherie.com The blank cost me 43 euros and the neck blank (flame maple) 13.7 euros. I was expecting a low grade flame, but when I went to pick it up, it's basically a AAAAA piece, very impressive wood. Their 1st class was unreal. Anyhow, the piece I got is already pretty tan, so I'm expecting good results, even if it's no mahogany tan. It has some nice streaks in it, close to swamp ash in the back. Thus, I'm worried the grain might be too open, perhaps? Anyway, if I were to solid color the body I would have to follow these steps, correct: 1- thin poly layer on bare wood 2- layers of solid color paint with light sanding in between 3- layers of poly with light sandin in between, expect the last one Phil, does this sound right to you? Edited March 10, 2005 by hendrix2430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 (edited) Hendrix, Finishing is a bit more complicated than that. You need first a sealer, I don't know if that's what you mean by "1.poly" you can either use "fondur" in france, "gomme lacque deciré", cyanoacrilate glue or two-component epoxy or as a matter of fact any other car paint sealers out there. Then your color coats, then your clear lacquer coats. Before you go on further, go read those tutorials and then download reranch's finishing 101 document. I've got a feeling you need to read quite a bit on it first. Make as many searches as you can and read up like a maniac before you start or buy any sort of finishing product first. On the other hand, thanks for the info on "Les bois de lutherie" I wanted to order a flamed bass neck blank but wasn't sure what i'd get for quality, now I know By the way, you might also want to see the french luthier's forums: www.lutherie-amateur.com www.forum-lutherie.fr Edited March 10, 2005 by Phil Mailloux Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 (edited) Hendrix, Finishing is a bit more complicated than that. You need first a sealer, I don't know if that's what you mean by "1.poly" you can either use "fondur" in france, "gomme lacque deciré", cyanoacrilate glue or two-component epoxy or as a matter of fact any other car paint sealers out there. Then your color coats, then your clear lacquer coats. Before you go on further, go read those tutorials and then download reranch's finishing 101 document. I've got a feeling you need to read quite a bit on it first. Make as many searches as you can and read up like a maniac before you start or buy any sort of finishing product first. On the other hand, thanks for the info on "Les bois de lutherie" I wanted to order a flamed bass neck blank but wasn't sure what i'd get for quality, now I know By the way, you might also want to see the french luthier's forums: www.lutherie-amateur.com www.forum-lutherie.fr ← No problem Phil. Thanks so much for the info. I've read all the turotials, but the pics don't work for me, for some reason... By 1- Poly, I meant using a thin layer of lacquer as a sealer before the dye, or color coats. I went to the hardware shop yersterday and saw a rubbing lacquer for woods, which was poly based. It was actually recommended by the sales person I talked to. I has a slight amber tinit to it too, but is NOT a dye. That would work as a "sealer" right? Edited March 10, 2005 by hendrix2430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 (edited) Oh I just found what you meant I think: it's called Matine Gomme Laque. http://www.castorama.fr/boutique/sku/sku.j...tId=CastoPV1055 if you don't read french, it's basically a alcohol based lacquer, which also filles pores... Would that be compatible with paint and spraying polyurethane? So this would be used on bare wood before everything right? Edited March 10, 2005 by hendrix2430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hendrix, I'm a native french speaker, je suis québécois. "Gomme lacque" is called shellac in english and is good as a sealer coat, the only problem is that the shellac on that castorama site is full of wax. You need dewaxed shellac if you want to go the shellac way. Read the "french polishing" tutorial on the LMII link I gave you if you want to learn more about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Once again guys, From a finisher's standpoint and terminology, poly and lacquer are two entirely different animals. Lacquer is a product that is thinned with lacquer thinner. It dries by evaporation. Each coat redissolves the previous layer and you get an absolute melding of the coats. It dries in about 15 minutes or so. Sanding sealer for lacquer has an additive that makes it easy to sand, but softer, so you use it to build your finish and then top it off with lacquer for durability. Polyurethane is a product that is thinned with mineral spirits,or water if it's an acrylic polyurethane. The coats dry by chemical reaction. The only intercoat adhesion is mechanical, so you have to do a good scuff sanding in between coats. They make sanding sealer for polys too. Shellac is a substance secreted by a southeast Asian beetle. Sort of a "beetle wax". Cleaned and refined to various grades it is a made into a finish by dissolving it in methyl alcohol. It actually performs similarly to lacquer, but is not either alcohol or water proof, so it isn't a good final finish for a guitar. It is a great sealer for oily woods and unwanted stains. It is the finish used to French polish furniture to a high gloss, and was the stock in trade for the furniture industy until lacquer came along in the 20th century. "Layering" dyes is tricky. It's better, in my opinion, to tint your sanding sealer and spray it. This is for lacquer type finishes. You can tint poluyurethane but it's a little trickier. My stock advice if you're only doing a guitar every once in a while is to use aerosol cans with the colors already in them, and then use rattlecan clear to top coat. Like Re-ranch or Stew-Mac. My feeling about polyurethane is that it's for homeowners to put on unfinished furniture and floor guys to put on hardwood floors. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 it's called Matine Gomme Laque. if you don't read french, it's basically a alcohol based lacquer, which also filles pores... Would that be compatible with paint and spraying polyurethane? So this would be used on bare wood before everything right? ← I don't think this is what you want, this stuff has wax in it, and it's supposed to be used after a sealer (fond dur). Hendrix, have you Read This? Seems to me it's exactly the info you're looking for. Just use the color you want instead of blue. Interesting about the luthier link...think I might do my wood shopping there next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 hi guys, this is what I need as a sealer: http://www.castorama.fr/boutique/sku/sku.j...ctId=CastoV0030 It's transparent...no tint to it. I found some lacquers also that have "teck" tint, that I could apply before the final finish... By the way, what is teck oil used for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 it's called Matine Gomme Laque. if you don't read french, it's basically a alcohol based lacquer, which also filles pores... Would that be compatible with paint and spraying polyurethane? So this would be used on bare wood before everything right? ← I don't think this is what you want, this stuff has wax in it, and it's supposed to be used after a sealer (fond dur). Hendrix, have you Read This? Seems to me it's exactly the info you're looking for. Just use the color you want instead of blue. Interesting about the luthier link...think I might do my wood shopping there next time. ← Hi, yes it's a great place. Do you live near Besancon? I'm sure they could ship the wood to you. The owner was actually packing a stash of wood when I came in the shop. I will get "fond dur" at Castorama tomorrow, but I'm still in the dark as to what to use for the final transaprent finish. I want a shiny look, a glossy look. What the french product I could use? what's "clear gloss" in french? Do it dry quickly? I also saw some tinted lacquer that I could use between the sealer and the clear gloss. Is that too much stuff perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 phil, the stew mac link is great, but I'm not sure about blue tint like that because I don't have quilted or flame maple. With some thinking, I think a butterscotch tint or "teck" tint would go in the direction of alder and look much less weird. On the other hand, it may end up looking much better than I think... By the way, since the fond dur is liquid inside a bottle, would you advice me to rub it in, or spray it with a gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javacody Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 First, Alder does not soak up a lot of finish. Depending on the piece, grain filling may not even be needed. Second, the alder bodies I've seen tend to have a reddish tint. I myself tried dying one yellow and it came out a nice amber/honey color. Not even close to yellow though! Third, the finish you choose as your clear could also end up darkening the color you choose. I highly recommend that you get some scraps and test, test, test! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Hendrix, Shellac (Font dur) can be applied either by hand or with a spraygun. If you've got a spraygun then get nitro-cellulose lacquer for your top coats, it's whats traditionally used in the business and I know you can find it in a few places in france. The french forums should help you find the best place to get it from their links page. But! ... as said before read, read, read first! get that reranch 101 document and study it like a maniac!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 I used Carlux car paint and their clear finish, bought both at Feu Vert...came out nicely. I definitely recommend some kind of sealer for alder --I hadn't figured out about fond dur yet, so I didn't use anything other than primer, and you can see too much of the wood (not the grain, but the texture of the wood itself) because the alder cracked a bit Only thing I have to find now is the right polishing compound --I didn't know there was a french forum, I'll have to ask over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrix2430 Posted March 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 (edited) hi, I finally got some "fond dur", shellac in english, and I will wait until I've routed all the cavities, and sanded out the final shape, for my PRS meets Tele project. I'm did a Tele shaped body (not exact shape, but 90% close, only with a wider and longer "butt" ) with 2 P90s and a hardtail. I will use a flame maple neck with Indian Rosewood fingerboard. I plan on cutting the board for a 1 11/16 nut width and a wide 2-3/8 at the heel. Also I plan to make a fatback. The result will be (I hope) similar to a PRS wide fat neck. By the way, do you guys think 2- 3/8 is really too wide at the heel? Anyway, -After I apply the shellac, I will use either some wood dye (dark walnut tint) or tinted lacquer (which apparently is poly based) to darken the tint of the wood a little: Here's the wood dye: http://www.castorama.fr/boutique/sku/sku.j...tId=CastoPV1054 Here's the tinted lacquer: http://www.castorama.fr/boutique/sku/sku.j...tId=CastoPV1031 So here are my queries: -After I apply the shellac coats, could I use shellac as the final finish coats after the wood dye? So I'd be using it in the place of a clear gloss lacquer for instance. -OR, if I buy the tinted lacquer (poly based), could I simply use this as the tint and final finish as well. So I wouldn't be using any poly or whatever at the end. I'd simply end with the final coats of the tinted lacquer. -OR, do you guys think my best bet would be to use the fond dur, then the wood dye, and then the tinted lacquer? Thanks so much, once again, you guys' advice is truly great! Edited March 12, 2005 by hendrix2430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hold on! "fond dur" is "sanding sealer" in english "gomme lacque" is "shellac" in english, don't get confused. You'll get in lots of trouble later if you don't get that straight. Here goes: 1. apply your dye to the wood 2. sanding sealer 3. clear coats A dye on its own has to be applied to the wood itself you can't apply a wood dye onto lacquer, the sanding sealer is applied to lock in the dye and build coats of lacquer on top of the dye that will be easily sandable. Basically the job of the sading sealer is to make sure that the first couple of coats of it goes on easily and sands easily flat. You need to sand your sanding sealer flat after it dries. Once thats done then build up clear lacquer until you've got enough coats to be a good enough protection. or: 1. sanding sealer 2. tinted lacquer 3. clear coats Start building up your sealer coats and sand them flat. Then use colored lacquer to give the tint you want. Then clear coat the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hold on! "fond dur" is "sanding sealer" in english "gomme lacque" is "shellac" in english, don't get confused. You'll get in lots of trouble later if you don't get that straight. ← Something tells me Hendrix isn't French...maybe it's the fact that he's measuring in inches...(it's a lot easier in metric, took me a while to get used to that though). Anyway, Hendrix, have a look for a "bouche pores" --that's your grain filler (supposedly optional with alder though). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the order of events should be: 1. Stain. 2. Grain filler. (bouche pores) 3. Sealer (fond dur) 4. Clear coat. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a section in PGF with a multi-language glossary? Including available materials in each country? Took me three months to figure out what the French use for sealer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Mailloux Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 If Hendrix ain't french he sure writes it as well a me though He started posting on the french forum and it sure looks like he's french. He might use the inches thing to facilitate it for the americans reading PG, they also have those rulers in france with one side in metric and the other side in imperial like we have in canada, easy to convert then. The order of events you posted is the same as my first one with the exeption of the grain filler which is not necessary on alder as mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 If Hendrix ain't french he sure writes it as well a me though He started posting on the french forum and it sure looks like he's french. He might use the inches thing to facilitate it for the americans reading PG, they also have those rulers in france with one side in metric and the other side in imperial like we have in canada, easy to convert then. The order of events you posted is the same as my first one with the exeption of the grain filler which is not necessary on alder as mentioned ← So where's this French site? Can you post the link? As for Hendrix, well, his English is pretty good too...maybe he another Quebecois... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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