Corrective Nuts And Zero Frets.

[Southpa]

Your argument is flawed. It's based on the fact that it's easier to use an existing method than create a new one. Fine. But why did the factories choose to implement the nut rather than nut + zero fret in the first place? Because it's cheaper and easier to install ONE pre-cut nut than it is to install one pre-cut nut (a zero fret requires a nut, too) AND a fret.

Costs can be not only incurred in materials, as you outline in the quote above, but moreso in the amount of time it takes to setup each individual guitar with a precut nut. The zero-fret production method is cheaper in the long run because you just slap it on and the guitar is ready to play. At least, that is the reasoning I heard behind the whole "zero-fret - mass production" theme. They found that there were problems with precutting nuts, buzzing strings, action too high etc. and too much quality control needed on the assembly line. Not every neck is/was the same in that area, but installing a zero-fret fixes that problem. I'm not knocking it by any means, its a surefire way to get a playable guitar on the first go. And lots of people consider it the "European" thing to do.

http://www.buildyourguitar.com/resources/tips/zerofret.htm

Edited April 7, 2005 by Southpa

[GregP]

I don't understand the reasoning behind that.

Method 1: mass-installed nuts

a. install pre-slotted nut

Method 2: zero fret

a. install pre-slotted nut

b. install, crown, polish, file additional fret

<shrug>

I'm not saying either is particularly challenging. In Method 2, the additional fret isn't exactly hand-buffed, either, and I know that. But it IS still an additional step, with additional materials. Stretched over mass-production amounts of guitars, that IS a substantial cost in materials AND manufacturing.

In a 200 dollar guitar, I assure you that they are NOT making sure each nut and guitar is 'set up' correctly.

Greg

[westhemann]

b. install, crown, polish, file additional fret

don't want to break your heart...but mass produced guitars do not have the frets leveled,crowned,and polished after installation.

i don't know how familiar you really are with building,so excuse me if i seem to be explaining why the sky is blue.

the fretwire comes extruded in perfectly smooth and correctly shaped lengths,which are then cut to length and installed...then recut flush to the neck,and beveled,then the ends are polished smooth.if the board is level and the slots are clean so the frets seat all the way,then that is it...there is no more for the low end guitars...

yes this makes for higher action to prevent buzzing.that is exactly the sort of mass production cost cutting idea that results in guitars that PLAY like cheap pieces of ....

only the high end builders and custom shop guitars have a fret leveling,crowning,and polishing before being sent out.

something else.when i build my own necks...i check the frets after installation because,if the job of installation is done perfectly,there is no need to level them.i have built two necks this well...the first two i built needed the leveling

[GregP]

OK, I'll buy that. No broken heart over here.

So that leaves me with:

a. install pre-slotted nut

b. install pre-fab fretwire

Either way, it's an extra cost.

Rather than arguing with that, though, I'd be curious to hear someone else's "from scratch" explanation as to why they think a zero fret is cheaper and easier to install. It's easy enough to throw up red herrings, but the core issue isn't being spoken to that way. It's a small point, and it's been accepted at least by me... but it doesn't negate the point made about engineering practices or answer the question, "why do cheapie companies use nuts, then, rather than zero frets?"

Of course, nobody has addressed the other point that I raised about Steinberger using them. But that's fine... it IS, after all, only one example of a company that uses them.

Greg

[westhemann]

i do not know which is cheaper.that's not my department.but i trust lovekraft

I agree that it's a rep, but I think reputation is unimportant when compared to design. Steinberger, for example, uses zero fret (and that's including their current Synapse models). And Steinberger aren't known as 'cheap', AND they ARE known as being visionary and concerned with pushing the envelope. <shrug> Obviously Ned and his crew weren't concerned that some factory guitars have used zero fret before.

by the way..steinberger has a huge portion of their inventory which is nothing but low end korean imports.very few steinbergers are high end.

the one i bought i repacked and sent back after about 5 minutes of playing.horrid,horrid p.o.s.

it was a synapse...by the way as well...a synapse is a cheap korean import marketed under a u.s. name

[GregP]

They've re-released their top-end line, though. <shrug>

I wouldn't have bought a Spirit Steinberger, either. I wouldn't argue too much about import parts, though... that's pretty much every manufacturer out there.

I trust Lovekraft, too, and if he gives me advice some day about HOW to cut a nut properly, I'll listen with open ears. But that doesn't mean he has the answers to every and all guitar-related question or manufacturing question.

Greg

[westhemann]

I wouldn't have bought a Spirit Steinberger, either.  I wouldn't argue too much about import parts, though... that's pretty much every manufacturer out there.

i edited my original post,so i will repeat it here.don't be fooled...the synapse is barely a step above a spirit,if at all.

total p.o.s.

that is what i had and returned

[westhemann]

good lord greg...i just hit the wrong button and complety destroyed your post...i apologize profusely...i hope you can remember it well enough to repeat it...

here was my attempted reply though...again,i am sorry

to be sure...but a $900 ibanez is much,much nicer than that synapse was.

ned steinberger IS an acknowledged visionary...not because of the zero fret though...because of the transtrem system and the use of graphite in his guitars...and the futuristic look.

visionary really doesn't necessarily mean smart in every aspect.i would say in this case it just means he "had a vision" as to what he wanted to do,which was quite unusual for sure

just so you know,the edit and delete buttons are right next to my quote and reply buttons.it was an honest mistake

scott and lovekraft know the irony of me doing this

[westhemann]

i will attempt to quote your post from memory

ahem

well,there you go,at least someone addressed my post

i am sure some have returned low end ibanez imports as well.

but i still wonder why ned steinberger,an acknowledged visionary,chose to make use of the zero fret

close enough?

geez ,how embarressing...i need a head hanging in shame emoticon

[GregP]

Nah, that was close enough.

You're absolutely right that being a visionary doesn't mean that you got it 'all' right. However, in this particular case (not having talked to Ned myself) I'll have to extend him the benefit of the doubt that when he was designing the guitar and it came to the nut (which I'm sure he's aware is an important part of design), he would have consciously chosen the zero fret.

It's not like at the end of the day they would have said, "shoot, we forgot about the nut!" and Ned would have said, "Bah, just throw a zero fret on there."

Regarding the quality-- what can I say. I didn't see the one particular guitar you tried, and I haven't been at every Ibanez customer's house when they got their $900 guitar and decided whether or not to keep or return it.

I'm planning to build my own headless rather than buy one anyhow... and it's a fairly safe bet that it'll have a zero fret, too.

[westhemann]

I'll have to extend him the benefit of the doubt that when he was designing the guitar and it came to the nut (which I'm sure he's aware is an important part of design), he would have consciously chosen the zero fret.

considering the steinberger nut design,i think the zero fret was probably used to make that installation less complex

[westhemann]

I'm planning to build my own headless rather than buy one anyhow...

good idea.save your money and use a speedloader instead of a transtrem.it's what i would do.

and then you do not need a zero fret...the speedloader nut installs just like a regular locking nut

as a matter of fact you cannot use a zero fret with a speedloader nut

[GregP]

Hey, that strikes me as good engineering. And it echoes one of the points I've been saying all along about zero frets. <chuckle> Good of Ned to realize this instead of getting snobbish about it.

Greg

[westhemann]

Hey, that strikes me as good engineering.    And it echoes what I've been saying all along about zero frets.  <chuckle>

Greg

←

not really...it's just that i think he was having design problems with his nut system,and that is the solution he chose,rather than making a REALLY complex nut that would have to slip over the end of the headless neck,hold the double ball end strings, and end up at the exact right spot.

think about it a little.

you will just jump at the chance to try and make a useless jab at lovekraft,who only means to help you anyway,won't you?

for shame

[GregP]

Au contraire.

I never took a jab at anyone, and I'm disappointed that you would think that's my motivation. I don't even know how Lovekraft factors into it... ???

Neither of us can prove our point, but I DID think about it. You're about the third person who seems to believe that just because I don't share your perspective, that I haven't "thought" mine out. It's insulting, especially considering my track record on this forum. I'm not known as a troll, and AM known for being pretty humble. But I don't have to factor "submissiveness" into the modesty equation, and I do NOT back down in a debate just to appease people.

So, given the extensive argument I already presented, that you may have been too busy to read (regarding the storage of the food), I DO think it's good engineering because it tackles the problem at the root, rather than trying to develop an unecessarily complex solution.

Do you REALLY think they couldn't have engineered a locking system for their nut, similar to an integrated Floyd Rose locking nut? Of course they could have. But good engineering probably entered into the equation.

He may very well have been having design problems, and then someone may very well have said (as my local luthier said to me when discussing compensated nuts) "Or, you could use a zero fret."

THAT, Wes, is GOOD engineering!!!

Back to the jab thing... that last post of yours was a CLEAR jab at me, and other people have made clear jabs as well. Funny how when it's the other side of the debate, it's OK, but when the tables are turned suddenly I'm a bad guy just for continuing to support and provide evidence for my point of view.

It's mind-boggling to me. I value the skills of the members here, and I always listen to advice, particularly when I request it. I'm not prone to throw jabs around, but Lovekraft is one of the LAST people I would insult. A debate is not a jab, it's a debate.

Shame on YOU, Wes, and here's an eyeroll emoticon right back atcha:

Greg

[GregP]

I'm planning to build my own headless rather than buy one anyhow...

good idea.save your money and use a speedloader instead of a transtrem.it's what i would do.

and then you do not need a zero fret...the speedloader nut installs just like a regular locking nut

as a matter of fact you cannot use a zero fret with a speedloader nut

←

Actually, though I offhandedly mentioned the zero fret, in actual fact if you dig out the threads in which I've discussed it, Speedloader is at the top of my list. I wouldn't use a zero fret with it, but I bet you COULD, even though it's not designed to.

[westhemann]

I'm planning to build my own headless rather than buy one anyhow...

good idea.save your money and use a speedloader instead of a transtrem.it's what i would do.

and then you do not need a zero fret...the speedloader nut installs just like a regular locking nut

as a matter of fact you cannot use a zero fret with a speedloader nut

←

Actually, though I offhandedly mentioned the zero fret, in actual fact if you dig out the threads in which I've discussed it, Speedloader is at the top of my list. I wouldn't use a zero fret with it, but I bet you COULD, even though it's not designed to.

←

no you could not.the whole way the system works is through preset string lengths..moving the nut back farther to make room for it would kind of ruin that..though you COULD buy 25.5 strings and use a 24.75 scale..that way you would place the zero fret at the 24.75 spot and be allright...but that would be silly,since you would still need to place the nut at the 25.5 length.

I don't even know how Lovekraft factors into it... ???

don't play dumb.you accused someone of snobbery in the last few pages(maybe perry rather than lovekraft)but your other post was just a simple jab.my pointing it out was not a jab,and now you are again being antagonistic at yet another person only trying to have a polite discussion of the fine points of this topic.

you turned it around with this

<chuckle> Good of Ned to realize this instead of getting snobbish about it.

which is undeniably an attack yet again at somebody in this thread.you are not talking to a moron.YOU made the mistake of trying to gain a personal upper hand against people i respect and agree with on the majority of this topic through my conversation,trying to use me as a tool and a pawn.and what i said in no way even goes against what they told you before.a zero fret in a steinberger is a cheaper way of solving the problem of proper nut placement in that particular case.

jab at you?no sir.get over yourself and try to join the world of the polite ,no motive,conversation

You're about the third person who seems to believe that just because I don't share your perspective, that I haven't "thought" mine out.

please,now you are just making things up.in no way did i say or even imply this.as a matter of fact i myself consider the two as being a tradeoff...but your "luthier friend" is wrong.a zero fret is not a replacement for a COMPENSATED nut.see..you said here

and then someone may very well have said (as my local luthier said to me when discussing compensated nuts) "Or, you could use a zero fret."

which totally contradicts you earlier assertion that you were NOT claiming a zero fret did the same thing as a compensated nut

i am done with you and this conversation.you dissapoint me as i thought you were better than this

[GregP]

Wes,

I don't even know what to say. I've been misunderstood, and there's little point trying to argue with you about it. I also know that I've been slighted in this thread, and I have had a thick enough skin to take it. I'm sure that everybody else in this thread can take it as well with no sort of residual feelings of animosity.

It was only a debate, after all. Get off your high horse and quit being a hypocrite while you're at it. You're the absolute KING of 'sticking it' to people with blunt language and then saying, "I only tell it like it is" by way of apology.

You're right about the Speedloader, but if you couldn't see the humour in my being contrary, then a joke was simply lost on you.

You want to talk about disappointed? I thought I was surrounded by helpful people, and I've been ganged up on repeatedly here; and what's worse, it's by people whom I would have loved to have gotten help from at some point in time. Now, just because I like to have a debate, I'm being painted by you and other forum regulars as a 'bad guy'?

I'm boggled as to how the heck that could have happened.

Greg

[westhemann]

You're the absolute KING of 'sticking it' to people with blunt language and then saying, "I only tell it like it is" by way of apology.

yes i am.but that is NOT what i was doing with you until you tried to use me as your tool.you claim you were not but it is clear you were.

i was TRYING to have an enjoyable conversation with a guy who i thought had some valid points,but then you turned it around.

and don't pretend i don'tt like a fair debate.you know i love them and like reading them as well as joining them.

but one thing i don't like is an attempt to lead me into contradicting another.it is insulting and you did not even succeed before you tried to throw in your little "i win"

but move on.i have

[GregP]

What's more, I WAS being polite, and suddenly you've turned around on me in the blink of an eye. I'm not in control of how you may or may not read into my words, but all I can do is assure you that nobody in particular was being attacked on a personal level. Do I think dismissing a zero fret out of hand is a bit snobbish? Yes, I do. That doesn't mean I was gunning for anybody in particular.

I can tell my best friend that he's being an a-hole when he throws a penny at a prostitute on the street, but he's still my best friend.

Really, if you're disappointed, and so am I, that makes disappointment all around. So much for mutual support and education and discussing varying (and sometimes conflicting!) viewpoints, when I get accused of doing something 'wrong' just for sticking to my guns.

Greg

[GregP]

Well, anything further will have to be by PM... no point flinging mud in public...

Greg

[westhemann]

well that is how you see it.i can understand self absorption,we are all guilty of it ,i just thought we were having a great conversation and then you had to end it with your "snobbish" jab

[GregP]

I'm not too big a man to apologize if that was taken out of context. I won't deny that I meant what I said... I think not using zero frets without consideration of all factors IS too dismissive.

But I will vehemently deny to the ends of the earth that I had any particular person in mind when I said it.

That said, since I didn't have a particular target in mind, I suppose I could have chosen different language. Language is fallible and doesn't always convey the meaning it was intended to convey.

[Ragasguitars]

I think the "cheaper" idea for this debate is not being understood by some. If you build one guitar every other day, it really can't be factored into the cost and doesn't make a difference in cost, but if you want to just take a pre slotted nut and slap it on a guitar and just leave it like that, you shouldn't be building guitars. There are enough minute variables and tolerances that will make a pre slotted nut only make matters worse if you don't do a proper set up. I was a tooling engineer for CA Guitars, not that it is saying much but I quit, the company was run by a bunch of idiots adn the place sucks. Anyway, each guitar was set up with a pre slotted nut, but all that did was give a guidline as to where the slots needed to be, each one had to be filed to a specified set up depending on the model and the string gauge used. All frets were leveled and polished before the guitar went out, but you dont get that kind of work at a mass production factory, as in 50-100 guitars being sent out a day. This is where the zero fret becomes a much cheaper method of production, not from a guitar building sense but a manufacturing sense. If you don't understand production and manufacturing at all you won't understand this. Simple things save money. Unauthorized cigarette breaks by a couple hundred emloyess every day costs a lot of money, its simple and may seem minute but in the long run and on a large scale it costs companies lots of money, just like a zero fret would save companies a lot of money. If you have ever used a capo, you have used a zero fret so it doesn't matter either way, they function the same way but overall production, zero frets are cheaper and give better results for efficiency.

[GregP]

[edited to make it more brief]

My reasoning depends entirely on the fact that I don't imagine there's any labour cost on the $200 guitar's nut, and therefore the extra cost is mainly simply in the cost of that wee little 2" of fretwire, spread out over huge production runs.

If there are labour costs involved in the cheap guitar's nut and no labour costs invovled in the zero fret, then you're absolutely correct.

I understand the economics of it all, but I think that some of us have had conflicting 'initial premises'. Ie. my initial premise is that there's no labour cost on a pre-slotted or CNC'd cheapie nut-job. If I'm wrong, then my argument fails, and I'm willing to admit it. But if you go to a "Cort" factory or whatever, I'd be surprised to find people labouring on setting up a nut. Could be, though... could be...

Greg