Mini Toggle Switches And Volume Pots

[Stew]

Ok, I've got a project that requires 3 mini DPDT ON/OFF/ON toggle switches, one for each pickup. I also have an LR Baggs piezo X-bridge blend pot that I'm going to work into the wiring diagram.

I've wired up 3 LR Baggs systems before so there's no problem there and I've wired plenty of Strat configurations before. The only difference with my design, is that instead of the 5 way switch, I'm using the toggles, and instead of the LR Baggs supplied 1/4" output jack, I'm using a Switchcraft deep panel stereo jack instead. The LR Baggs system is normally to be installed into a standard Strat pickguard assembly. But since my components are rear routed and side jack access, and Jag style location of magnetic controls, it changes things for me.

I'm getting really confused about the whole "what wire hooks to what" concept. You see, instead of the wires coming from both LR Baggs 5 meg mini pot and 250K volume and tone magnetic mini pots, that normally attach to a 5 way switch, now have to somehow attach to 3 separate DPDT mini toggles.

Seymour Duncan has wiring schematics that show toggle wiring for independant pickup control........but;

1. There's one wire coming from the middle left toggle (out of two rows of 3) and going directly to the output lug of a mono 1/4" output jack.......no volume pot.

2. The hot wire from the pickup is show going to the L bottom lug on the toggle.

So I'm trying to figure out where to place the pickup's hot wire onto each toggle and what return wires from the toggles going to the magnetic volume pot. The opposite "ON" position on the toggle switch does not stay in place, but the opposite "ON" position does. So it's almost more like, "ON/OFF?Preview".

I contacted guitarelectronics.com and their tech said that you only attach the wires from the pickup and volume pot at the two upper terminals on the toggle switch. Then connect the two middle terminals on the toggle and send to ground.

So what's a good plan? I hope I wired the Switchcraft deep panel stereo jack correctly. There's three points of attachment on the jack; 1. shielded braid at the metal clip type part of jack, one white wire on the ring, and the red wire (which connects to the middle output lug on the magnetic volume pot) on the tip.

So:

A. Connecting toggles to volume pot, where to place white pickup wires to toggle terminals, where to place volume pot wires on toggle terminals.

B. Refresh memory of correct wire placement for Stereo deep panel Switchcraft jack.

Thanks and sorry for the frustration to those that this stuff comes easy to. I just can't visualize the flow of things.

[Stew]

http://community.webshots.com/photo/317746...317746316EJcWTS

[Stew]

Either this is the worlds easiest question or nobody has knowledge regarding the use of 3 individual mini toggles for each pickup. Or this is the dumbest wiring idea ever thought of. I'm noticing plenty of interest but yet nobody will answer. Geez I'll just do the standard wiring configs in the future.

[jnewman]

For this kind of thing you really want an on-on (or on-none-on which is the same thing) DPDT switch. Connect all the pickup grounds together. Each pickup's hot wire goes to the center terminal on one side of the switch. Then, the side of the switch you want to have as the "on" position gets soldered to the volume pot. When multiple switches are turned on, the pickups will be in parallel, when a switch is turned off, the whole pickup is at ground potential and there's no connection to the hot side of the audio signal.

With those funny switches, you could just wire each side of the switch to the volume pot, in which case your idea about "on-off-preview" would work.

With the stereo jack, in audio applications the tip is left, center ring is right, and part nearest the cable is ground. How you connect it depends on how you want the other end to connect to an amp. You're probably best off making the tip the magnetic pickups, the ring the piezo, and the shaft the ground. This will let you use a normal guitar cable with the guitar to use the magnetic pickups. I've never actually owned a guitar with magnetics and a piezo, but you'll probably need a cable that splits to two mono cables, one for magnetic and one for piezo, or a box that does the splitting for you.

That's a really pretty guitar, by the way!

Edited April 24, 2005 by jnewman

[lovekraft]

...I'm noticing plenty of interest but yet nobody will answer. Geez I'll just do the standard wiring configs in the future...

Yeah, that attitude is going to truly endear you to the people around here who can help you out!

You're attempting a complicated stereo wiring setup with oddball switches that you haven't described adequately (ON-OFF-Preview??!? ), you don't appear to need any information that wouldn't be easier for you to get yourself with a continuity checker, and now you're not happy because you're not getting free advice fast enough?

It is a pretty guitar!

[JohnH]

Guitar looks great, but I reckon you should change those switches. I could see those momentary on 'preview' positions driving you nuts over time.

If you want simple, just an off/on switch wired as described above will do it.

If however, you can get proper on-off-on switches (that stay where you put them!), then you have a nice option of, for each pickup: normal phase, off, reverse phase. This would give you lots more sound options in combination, as well as let you optimise the hum cancellation between pickups. Im sure theres a diagram on Seyour Duncan, but I'll post one if you need it.

Example:, if your middle pup is reverse wound as on a normal Strat, then neck/middle and middle/bridge combos are in phase and hum cancelling. Neck/bridge however is hum cancelling if revese phased, giving you a very different sound with low hum.

Mini toggles usually all fit in the same 1/4" hole, so no change to your bodywork if you change the switches.

[Stew]

Actually all I could get were on-off-momentary mini switches. Everything else was on-on or on-on-on. I tried my hardest to find on-off switches that weren't slider switches.

Anyway, the switch is a on-off-momentary as I said. The off stays in place when necessary and the on position stays in place. I would probably never use the momentary unless I wanted to do some Ace Frehley on-off toggle effects.

So you're saying that I should have the pot wire go to the opposite middle position from the hot wire middle? Or connect to the terminal on the switch that makes contact when in the ON position?

As far as cable goes, I do have a Y stereo cable from Fishman that is marked "piezo" and "magnetic" on the two Y ends. I would also like to use a normal mono cable for when I'm only going to use magnetic pickups and don't need the piezo circuit.

The piezo/magnetic wiring is wired as follows: white to inner ring, red to adjacent tip, and shielded wire to the end of the clip (shark fin looking end). This white wire then hits the 5 meg (that's what LR Baggs requires) pot at the opposite side of grounded lug. This wire shares the capacitor that's also connected to the middle lug of the 5 meg pot. Then the shield wire is soldered to the back of the pot and the red wire goes on and connects to the center lug of the 250k magnetic volume pot.

I've tried to wire up the switches with the hot in the left middle position and tried connecting the magnetic volume pot wire to the oppposite side. In fact I've tried all 5 terminals on the switch and no signal, of any kind.

Sorry I came off rough but I was wondering if the reason why nobody was responding was due to my stupid question. You know the kind, too stupid to even bother answering? That's where I was going.

[crafty]

Dude, that is the SICKEST guitar I've seen in a long time!! Post that mother in GOTM for June, please!!

If I had the money, I'd buy in from you in a heartbeat. Let us know when you put it up for sale!

Anyway, I've found regular on-off mini toggles at RadioShack no problem. Two tabs on the bottom doesn't get any simpler than that. I think you're going to have to do some continuity checking on those momentary switches to really get it right.

Try getting the magnetic side working BEFORE you get the stereo jack and piezo side hooked up. Usually it's best just to check a little bit at a time rather than trying to troubleshoot the whole works, you know?

Oh, I hope you don't mind, but that guitar is now my new Windows desktop.

Edited April 27, 2005 by crafty

[jnewman]

DPDT stand for Double Pole Double Throw.

Double Pole means there are, essentially, two separate switches.

Double Throw means that there are two individual terminals that may each be connected to the input terminal (these are the "on" and "momentary" positions).

An "On-On" DPDT switch would work fine for this application. You connect one out terminal to the volume pot and the second to nothing (or to ground), and then the connected terminal is an on position and the unconnected (or grouned) terminal is an off position. In the naming system, "ON" is just used to show a position where a terminal may be connected, "OFF" is a position with no corresponding terminal, and "MOMENTARY" is, as you've found, a position with a terminal but it won't stay there.

There is no such thing as a DPDT "ON-OFF" switch - or rather, it's not called that. If it's an "ON-OFF", then there's only one throw as there is only one output terminal, and then it's a single throw switch and there's no need to name its switch positions as there's always only a "in and out terminals connected" and "in and out terminals disconnected" position.

Here's a picture of how it should be wired:

Edited April 27, 2005 by jnewman

[Stew]

"Try getting the magnetic side working BEFORE you get the stereo jack and piezo side hooked up."

Problem is both circuits share the same output jack. Can I test the magnetic system by wiring up to a normal mono 1/4 output jack? I'd just replace the red wire that goes to the stereo deep panel phone jack (middle lug on the volume pot) and just run a normal wire to the output lug on the jack. That will also tell me if my stereo jack is hooked up correctly. Because that may be my problem, everything may be hooked up right except my output jack.

jnewman: So you're saying go with a DPST switch? So an ON/ON is really a ON/OFF depending how you wire it?

I'll go back to the electronics store. It's Electronics Warehouse which has everything, more than Radio Shack. I think EW has something like 300 different toggle switches from mini to full size.

[mledbetter]

I back-tracked through the photos and looked at the other ones.. man that guitar is amazing looking.. really neat concept too. Totally get the hardwood boat thing going there.. and I love the nav lights on the back. That would be a killer thing on stage.. in the fog.. lol.

If you can't find the switches you need locally, check out mouser online. It takes FOREVER to sfit through their thousands of pages but they have literally everything.

[jnewman]

jnewman: So you're saying go with a DPST switch? So an ON/ON is really a ON/OFF depending how you wire it?

←

Actually, all you need is a SPST (single pole single throw) switch, as you're only switching one signal, although a DPST will work just as well. There's only one signal you're switching here, so you just need one switch element (single pole). If you were trying to have indicator LED's as well as pickup switching or something (two signals), then you'd need two switching elements (double pole).

And ON/ON is indeed ON/OFF depending on how you wire it. It's just the silly way that they name the things that's confusing.

[Stew]

I really appreciate all the help and comments. Of course my Dad is a big fan of this guitar too (big boat fanatic). Somewhere someone's got a Jaguar sized hole on the deck of their Chris Craft. Just kidding.

I think I'll go and get the SPST switch to simplify matters. Two lugs, two wires.

Now, at guitarelectronics.com, their tech suggested grounding the switches. Do I take a separate wire that shares the output wire and send to a grounded screw in the control cavity?

I'll try to hook up to a 1/4" mono jack tomorrow. And if it works, then I'll try it with the LR Baggs system. If it does not work with the Baggs but worked with the magnetic using the mono jack, then I know my problem is in the wiring of the stereo Switchcraft deep panel phone jack.

Thanks again guys.

- Stew

http://community.webshots.com/photo/328177...328177692tbNXRl

[jnewman]

Now, at guitarelectronics.com, their tech suggested grounding the switches. Do I take a separate wire that shares the output wire and send to a grounded screw in the control cavity?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/328177...328177692tbNXRl

←

Eh, I don't know if grounding the switches is really that necessary, as they're mostly plastic and almost all the metal is the switching hardware itself (which obviously you can't ground, or the switch stops working).

[Stew]

So would having the magnetic volume pot and the piezo volume pot grounded prevent hum whenever I'd touch the toggle switch?

I'm sorry I'm such an idiot when it comes to electronics. This is the one speed bump that's preventing me from taking off. Junior College electronics class might be worth looking into.

[jnewman]

So would having the magnetic volume pot and the piezo volume pot grounded prevent hum whenever I'd touch the toggle switch?

I'm sorry I'm such an idiot when it comes to electronics. This is the one speed bump that's preventing me from taking off. Junior College electronics class might be worth looking into.

←

I'm actually not sure. I don't think touching the minitoggles would make the guitar hum, but I could be wrong. I don't think touching them makes the headphone amplifiers I've built hum, and I never grounded them there (although I did ground the volume pot).

[Stew]

jnewman: your switch wiring did not work. Here's what I have. Keep in mind that everything is hooked up to exact LR Baggs schematic with just a few exceptions:

1. 1/4" stereo output jack replaced with 1/2" Switchcraft deep panel phone jack.

2. DPDT toggle switches for each pickup.

3. 5 meg volume pot is independently grounded by screwed down tab to sheilded control cavity.

Is there anything missing?

http://community.webshots.com/photo/162851...333963910uMdryM

Edited May 2, 2005 by Stew

[jnewman]

It looks like you have everything wired correctly except for the output jack, which is wired totally wrong .

If you pick up a guitar cable and look at the plug on the end, the pointy tip end should carry magnetic pickup signal, the middle ring should carry piezo signal, and the sleeve (the part closes to the cable) should be ground.

The way you have your jack wired in the schematic is tip ground, ring magnetic, piezo sleeve. Plug a cable into the jack, look at how it connects.

Unfortuantely, my laptop broke yesterday and I don't have any way to get my digital camera pictures on to the internet, so you'll have to deal with my very poor MS Paint skills. Here's a picture of how it should go:

[Stew]

Ok, here's the deal. Jnewman, I resoldered the way you showed in your diagram. Thank you very much....but, no dice. This is what I did, I unsoldered all three connections and hooked up to the 1/4" stereo output jack. I plugged in and the beast was alive! So turns out your switch diagram did the reverse, it worked the momentary and did nothing on the "ON" position. So I swapped the output wires to the bottom instead and now everything works fine. No big, I knew it would be a simple swap. So good, no need to get more switches although it seems pointless to have that momentary, I'll never use it. It's got that "what was he thinking" factor.

Now more to come. Neck is nice and full, middle same but with more highs, and a nice surprise, a non brittle bridge but with plenty of cut. I had hoped that the 50's Antiquity I series pickup brightness would be balanced by all of that mahogany. Well I was right. So now it's like a Strat that will sustain for days.

Here's what else I have (you experienced builders might want to skip since you might already know this stuff), naturally I have them wired parallel so I still get brighter quack using bridge and middle and darker quack using the neck and middle. Cool factor, using the neck and bridge now gets me that nice Tele middle position tone. I talked to my Masterbuilder friend and he thought using all three toggles at once would sound poor, thin, and compromised output. Surprise! it's the best overall quack tone using all three pickups "ON". No drop in output and the most balanced out of phase tone I've ever heard. No more, "I like #2 position but it's a tad too bright", or "Nice #4 quack position but just a little bit dark". I love it.

Bad news: I placed my Fishman Y-cable into the jack (still have not changed back to the Switchcraft stereo deep panel jack yet, using the 1/4" still). Each end is clearly marked so I did the usual piezo end into my SWR California Blonde amp, and the magnetic cable into my Princeton Reverb amp. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM. No magnetic signal (no hum, completely quiet) and whenever I touch any roller knob, or toggle switches I get more hmmmm on the piezo end. I vaguely remember a short that started developing the last time I used the cable so maybe it's time to get a new one anyway. LR Baggs makes a stereo Y-cable for the X-bridge anyway.

So, now I'm thinking I somehow fried the Switchcraft 1/2" deep panel jack. I have a Switchcraft mono deep panel 1/2" jack so I thought until I iron out the piezo situation, I'll just wire up to that jack. Aahhhhhhhgggh! Decreased output and seems like all highs are bled off.

Tell me if I should change my plan of attack. I'm thinking:

1. Bad 1/2' Switchcraft stereo deep panel jack (replace)

2. Check to see if maybe the 5 meg piezo volume pot is grounding out by having the connection lugs touching the sides (which have been painted with two coats of shield paint).

Before I tried wiring up the magnetic signal, I did try the piezo with the Y cable and it didn't hum then, BUT there was a slight occilation frequency hum change when turning the piezo volume pot. Still did not get any sound though.

3. Add a ground jumper from the two chained magnetic vol/tone pots to the 5 meg pot, then from that pot send another ground wire to the trem claw. Rigth now I have the piezo grounded to the wall of the control cavity.

4. (Optional) Reverse the lug wiring on the magnetic vol/tone pots. They are in reverse (counter clock-wise to turn up).

Oh man this sounded like heaven. Now I just have to get it back. I sense we're closer.

jnewman, thanks for your help and patience. All this really educates me and challenges me to keep trying new wiring ideas.

[psw]

Here's a bit of a picture of the guitar I test my sustainer on and other stuff.

I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve but it sounds similar to what I've done in concept.

Basically I've got a three way toddle switch (gibson style) on the lower horn. This selects the neck and bridge pickups and combination in the middle.

The center "tone" control is now a "fader" (simply a volume control) for the middle pickup. You can dial this in to any position. Full on then you get a strat's position 2 and 4 on the toggle and in the centre position, the missing all three pickups on.

So you get all this with the mid pickup fader and a three way toggle....simple. In fact you get more as you can have as much or as little of that middle pickups influence as you want giving a huge range to this control.

Alright...I hope that's clear...so what's with the three mini toggles????

Each toggle controls the phase of each pickup. 2 way on-on DPDT switches wired to reverse the wires of each pickup. This radically changes the effect of the middle setting of the toggle switch. It also has a dramatic effect on the mid pickup fader's influence. In one position it's you're typical straty positions 2 and 4 knophler sound. But with the phase reversed you get kind of the opposite effect...an interesting midrange boost.

Oh yeah...I forgot, the other tone is a master tone with a twist...It doesnt effect the mid pickup. This mean's you can round off the highs and combine them with the crisp and alternately phased midpickup for more unique combinations!

So there's also a "preview" effect...set the toggles in a certain "pattern" (up/down) and you've got a selectable sounds to any combined setting...either the mid toggle position...or the effect of combining the mid pickup into any selection. These can be thin and funky or thick and warm. And, wait there's more...a flick of the phase switches and you can go directly between these two sounds...or fade in or out the mid pickup to fade in or out a notched straty flavour or the warmer humbuckery sound.

Now I know there's a lot of criticism of the flight cockpit guitar idea. But I've found this to be quite simple...set the toggles for the range of tones required and all you do is use the three way toggle to select between three tones, and use the fader on the fly as a unique tone control.

Now I've been working up some piezo idea's (under the neck) and then there's the sustainer (knob and two switches) but I haven't decided on what or how I'm going to implement these ideas. Now this is perhaps going a little too far.

Anyway, my ideas on this guitar was amazingly easy to wire up if you want a clearer description.

And I love the guitar...Fender's Custom Shop made an official Chris Craft Strat but I think it looks better on the jag style and in the way you put it all together...very neat.

psw

I've got a thing for modern surf music...I hope your playing some spanking double picked runs on that thing!

[psw]

I thought I recognised the work....Gentlemen we are in the presence of a master!

This is Stew from Stew Made Guitars...I was googling around Stew and did you know if you search for "surf guitar" this beauty, perhaps my favorite ever theme guitars, comes up:

I've just got so many questions for you...I love your work....very, very special !

pete

[Stew]

Ok Pete, your check's in the mail

Ok, there is a short in the Y cable and this explains the Hmmmmmmm I got when trying out the piezo through my acoustic amp.

I'm pretty sure it's the jack, I must have stayed a little too long on the soldering iron or something.

Thanks for the super nice comments. I only get these ideas and then folks around forums are the ones who really make it a reality. I got bored with the standard pickguard factory look and wanted more from my guitars. I guess it's more than what most would want.

I didn't know the Custom Shop did a Chris Craft boat Strat. I know Girl Guitars did a Tele like this. That one is closer to the boat details.......except for the deck navigation light.

Yeah that surfboard guitar belongs to a Continental Airlines Exec in Guam now.

- S

[psw]

Completely off topic rant coming up!

Yeh, perhaps the girl guitar tele is what I saw...you seem to know what's what at the custom shop, so I'm sure they would have told you. Anyway, a fine take on the idea and suits the jag shape to a T.

I don't know what the culture's like around your neck of the woods. In Australia, there are a few quite large specialty surf shops down by the coast (towards the famous Bell's Beach or Phillip Island, in the state I'm in). Generally populated by teens looking for surfwear and jewelery but, they're a bit of an attraction, just to check out...and then there are your older more guitar savvy $parent$ that could be drawn like a magnet to your guitars hanging up like surfboards on the wall.

Just a thought. You know all these gothic looking death metal guitar's are great, but when you get to my age, you feel a little wierd wrestling a V on your knee and everyone thinks you thake yourself way too seriously. I also have trouble with all these fine pieces of furniture....AAAAA grade coffee tables. It's pushing up the price of instruments and churning through the wood. Don't get me wrong guy's, I love a good piece of wood, but mark my words...there's going to be rejection of this look, and it's already starting...anyone for a relic, etc.

If you can do it with a bit of humour and originality plus some spiffy design I think there may well be room for guy's like stew to make a place for themselves.

Anyway, I've stopped gushing...and ranting...just really wanted to show the other guys here that your not just a one trick pony. Now all we need to do is get your soldering up to the scratch of your guitars....

psw

[Stew]

"Now all we need to do is get your soldering up to the scratch of your guitars...."

What you're not supposed to drop a nickel sized glob of solder to ground your wires to the back of the pot?

I think you're talking about my lack of knowledge in wiring combinations.

And Pete, I'm going to go broke if I have to keep paying you $50. Just kidding. It's nice to be noticed. As far as one trick, it's hard just to limit myself to one concept. It's getting to the point I have to write down all my ideas. I have a leak in my creative faucet. I'm getting into some other techniques as we speak. I'll be getting a new surfboard concept design sometime this Summer. Dave Wronski from Slacktone has emailed me recently and he seems to be interested in my stuff. We'll see. I think the Fender Custom Shop is working on building something for Dick Dale presently so I don't want to step on their toes by offering Dick something as far as endorsements.

Ok, now what was this original topic? Oh yeah, wiring.

[psw]

Dave Wronski from Slacktone has emailed me recently and he seems to be interested in my stuff. We'll see. I think the Fender Custom Shop is working on building something for Dick Dale presently so I don't want to step on their toes by offering Dick something as far as endorsements.

Dick Dale may be the "King of the Surf Guitar" and all, but he's Fender through and through...friend to Leo...already has an Artist Model...what more does he need! And he seems to have a definite view (not withstanding his own strat's modifications) that there is only one Surf Guitar...the Stratocaster!

But Dave Wronski is "The Prince"...get him!

BTW Slacktone's new CD was reviewed in the latest Guitar Player Mag (May 2005, p.102). Check it out....

"DW has taken the genre of surf guitar further than anyone since Dick Dale. And he doesn't do it the easy way by simply grafting other styles of music onto the tried and true surf formula."...and..."Wronski innovates with an evolved melodic snsibility and use of dynamics that makes him the utter cream of the longboard crop. as he phrases with a delicacy seldom heard in the genre" ...and... trust me folks, Wronski is as bad as they come"

Ok...so I'm a fan and I'll stop taking your money...you seem to have the wiring sorted so I can't comment on that. Why not start a thread somewhere else on some design ideas for the surf guitar...might be a few others come out of the woodwork

pete

oh...and by the way....285 visits to this thread alone (so far)...most of whom have now seen your creations...all from a simple wiring question...you just got to love the PG forum !

??? You make surfboards??? Maybe you should make cases like Dick once had with the guitar cut into the board! Doubles as a stage prop!

Edited May 3, 2005 by psw