Soft Curly Maple Vs. Hard

[CudBucket]

I just bought to long pieces of soft curly maple. While not quite as hard as "hard" or sugar maple, it's still very hard. Much harder and more stable than say, poplar. I was planning on using it as a laminate in a neck through piece.

Anyone here ever use "soft" maple? Any thoughts about it?

Thanks.

Dave

[Scott Rosenberger]

You can use it for a Laminate neck assuming you're using another stronger wood along with it. Just dont try using it alone or you'll end up with a neck that feels like a rubber band

[Devon Headen]

Have you ever tried it Scott? I've never (that I know of) played a guitar with a soft maple neck, but I've had a full time luthier tell me it works fine. Over at the mimf I've asked, and got the same response there.

[CudBucket]

Devon, I've read the same and have also discussed it years ago with woodworkers in terms of furniture building. I believe the consensus was "even though it's called soft maple, it's still plenty hard, just not quite as hard as sugar maple".

The two pieces I got are about 1" thick and over 50" long. They're also about 5 or 6" wide. They both have beautiful figure and I paid about $40 for the pair, shipped to my house.

I'm intending to use walnut and cherry as the laminates for it. I'll post some pics when I get it.

Dave

[Scott Rosenberger]

Yes, I have used it once. I had a really nice piece of Flame just big enough for a neck and it worked but the results were unsatisfactory for me. The neck has a ton of flex. about 1 complete turn on the truss rod to straighten it. Thats too much IMO

[westhemann]

another member also tried to use soft maple on a one piece strat neck...he said it was quite too flexible

[mistahj]

Soft maple is actually rather hard, and lighter than hard maple. If it has a figure to it, I'd recommend a skunk stripe, or just a couple of lines of veneer sandwiched in between. Looks really good that way too.

If it doesn't have a figure to it, it shouldn't be a problem. Soft maple is actually harder than mahogany, and much easier to carve imho. It's easier to see grain reversals in maple than in mahogany.

I really can't see how using soft maple would be a problem.

[westhemann]

harder than mahogany,but mahogany is more stable.

see,here is the thing.most people want their electrics to have these super thin necks...you should use rock maple for that,or something similar...

if you are making a thick,short neck,like on an acoustic or similar,then THAT may be suitable for soft maple.i still would not use it personally.especially considering rock maple is plentiful and no more expensive.

but whatever...it's you guitar,take as many chances as you want with it

[silvertonessuckbutigotone]

I got a peice of soft maple buth avent used it yet, I'm laminating it with ebony and purpleheart so I'm not worried about the hardness, I've also heard it might ocntribute to some mud in your tone, but since I'm laminating it with purpleheart and ebony, I'm not worried about that either.

[CudBucket]

I'm laminating it too so it should be fine. Maybe I'll get some Wenge for the laminate pieces.

Dave

[mledbetter]

The hardness factor may be greater than mahogany but the grain and pore structure is totally different and that may lend to mahogany being a little stiffer and stable..

You could but a couple of CF bars in there if you were really dead set on using it.. But while it's a very hard wood still, everyone I have talked to about it has said it has a lot more flex than the hard rock maple..

[DannoG]

I think the problem with soft maple is there seems to be a lot more variation in wood density within the type. I have several pieces of it in my stash, some are almost as dense as hard maple, other radically lighter.

[mistahj]

harder than mahogany,but mahogany is more stable.

see,here is the thing.most people want their electrics to have these super thin necks...you should use rock maple for that,or something similar...

if you are making a thick,short neck,like on an acoustic or similar,then THAT may be suitable for soft maple.i still would not use it personally.especially considering rock maple is plentiful and no more expensive.

  but whatever...it's you guitar,take as many chances as you want with it

←

Actually, hard maple is double what soft maple is. I can get 1WF for $2.60 a bf, compared to $6 for hard maple. I consider that cost difference to be significant. Sorry if you don't.

Personally, I've made three necks, all with soft maple, one with curly figure. All seem to respond very well. I did, however, use 1/16" stripes opposite a curly core on one of them, split and reversed the grain on another, and used a padauk skunk stripe opposite maple sides for another, and used one slab.

I've only had trouble with the slab, and even that not much so. It twisted as it dried out after I rough cut it, so I joined the top and situated the twist so that it would pull away from the bass side. Problem solved.

As far as thickness is concerned. All my necks are reasonably thin. Thin enough to safely use a standard one way truss rod (.480" thinnest). I haven't had any problems at all. If you have had problems, I'd like to hear about it. If not, stop trying to intimidate newbies into using their checkbook instead of their brains.

Why not give tips on wood selection instead? Straight grain, no knots or picks, is what you're looking for. Quartersawn is preferable but not required. If you're concerned about stability at all (if it has any figure to it, or burl) slice your blank in half, reverse one side to make the grain run opposite, and glue up. This will keep any tendency to warp or twist in check, because the board will be pulling against itself, keeping it in place.

[skibum5545]

I guess this one goes back to the old "pine body" argument: if it works just fine, why don't you see major guitar companies coming out with soft curly maple necks on their guitars? After all, the figure is much more plentiful in soft than in hard maple, so if it's an equally valuable wood for such a purpose, it would be used as often...right?

But how many guitar companies use soft curly maple for necks?

Conversely, how many use hard maple? More specifically, how many don't?

Obviously, companies make wood selections for many different reasons: tone, looks, stability/strength, price, and availability. Clearly, soft curly maple is superior to hard maple in looks (more common curl figure), price, and availability, so it's either tone or stability/strength that makes it unusable the companies. My guess? Both. I'm not trying to hinder innovation or "intimidate newbies into using their checkbook instead of their brains", as you so aptly put it, I'm just pointing out that the major companies with the custom shops running 24/7 have tried it, and rejected it, probably on its tone and looks, not some other reason, as is often the case with rare but tonally superior exotics.

Moreover, mistahJ, if the difference in price for a single neck blank of $4 or so is too much for you, you might want to consider reevaluating how much you're planning to spend building a custom guitar.

Now, as it has already been mentioned many times, laminating soft maple with a nice, hard laminate like ebony, wenge, bubinga, purpleheart, etc. will greatly improve the neck's strengh, as will adding CF rods. However, without these, the neck will likely be too weak, as you, Scott Rosenberger, and Westhemann have all pointed out.

Finally, why not use hard curly maple? Obviously CudBucket already bought his soft maple, so he can still use it, provided he adds laminates/ CF rods, and is prepared to take the risk that it may be more flexible than he likes. In the future, however, I see no advantage to purposely choosing soft maple over hard, besides the price difference, which is a rather small one in the world of luthiery.

[westhemann]

If you have had problems, I'd like to hear about it. If not, stop trying to intimidate newbies into using their checkbook instead of their brains.

get off your high horse,and don't be a punk.

i have used soft maple and hard maple.i would not use soft maple for a thin neck that is supposed to last a lifetime.

the object of this site is to let people know of potential drawbacks to their ideas.my post does exactly that.

hard maple and soft maple are almost the same price where i buy it.maybe where you are the soft maple is more plentiful.but even at the price YOU give,you are only talking about a difference of about $12 vs $5.10 for a neck blank...and alot of that depends on bolt on or set neck vs neck through.

and if you get intimidated by words on your computer,then i submit that you are probably scared of your own shadow as well.

so in conclusion.just state your opinion and move on.i don't need you trying to guess my motives.

because on this forum there is always some punk trying to contradict for no other reason than to make themselves feel important,especially by contradicting a v.i.p. or a mod.

[mistahj]

I guess this one goes back to the old "pine body" argument: if it works just fine,...

But how many guitar companies use soft curly maple for necks?

Conversely, how many use hard maple? More specifically, how many don't?

Obviously, companies make wood selections for many different reasons: tone, looks, stability/strength, ...

Moreover, mistahJ, if the difference in price for a single neck blank of $4 or...

Now, as it has already been mentioned many times, laminating soft maple with a nice, hard laminate ...

Finally, why not use hard curly maple? ....

←

Actually, I don't see how this goes back to the "old pine" argument. Or, "what works for you, works for you". Soft maple works, has better figure, and in an electric instrument, makes very little contribution to tone if it's discernable at all, of which I am unconvinced. Of course, I haven't spent ten grand on my amps so how would I know?

As for the larger companies, I don't really see how their choices in wood selection for production guitars are of that much importance. They are geared for an entirely different kind of building where time is of greatest import, not like say, a guy working in his shop on his own guitar.

The fact is, and I'm sorry to say, figured maple only comes from soft maple. If someone has tried to sell you curly hard maple, I'm afraid you've been taken. Hard maple burl exists, but not curly or pommele hard maple. Only the soft maple varieties exhibit figure. Sycamore LOOKS like curly soft maple, and is hard, but again, sorry, it's sycamore, not hard maple.

And as to price, like anyone on this site, I'm trying to learn, and the best way to learn is to do. I've used both hard and soft maple and don't see the point in donating more money than I have to in wood to my cousin, my neighbor's kid, etc. etc. I already spend over 100 hours on every guitar I put together, and too much in hardware. So, in short, don't call me cheap. It's very rude.

And I'm sorry, but I don't believe that soft maple will be too weak when I know for a fact that it isn't. It is simply more prone to dings and dents. I think that's a fair tradeoff for superior workability.

[tdog]

"The fact is, and I'm sorry to say, figured maple only comes from soft maple. If someone has tried to sell you curly hard maple, I'm afraid you've been taken."

mistahj.....Not true!..... Soft curly maple is Eastern Red Maple for the most part. Most soft maple comes from the Pennsylvania region. Hard maple is sugar maple and tends to thrive in slightly colder regions like New England and Michigan.....Soft vs. hard curly maple is an aplles to oranges issue.

[mistahj]

If you have had problems, I'd like to hear about it. If not, stop trying to intimidate newbies into using their checkbook instead of their brains.

get off your high horse,and don't be a punk.

i have used soft maple and hard maple.i would not use soft maple for a thin neck that is supposed to last a lifetime.

the object of this site is to let people know of potential drawbacks to their ideas.my post does exactly that.

hard maple and soft maple are almost the same price where i buy it.maybe where you are the soft maple is more plentiful.but even at the price YOU give,you are only talking about a difference of about $12 vs $5.10 for a neck blank...and alot of that depends on bolt on or set neck vs neck through.

and if you get intimidated by words on your computer,then i submit that you are probably scared of your own shadow as well.

so in conclusion.just state your opinion and move on.i don't need you trying to guess my motives.

because on this forum there is always some punk trying to contradict for no other reason than to make themselves feel important,especially by contradicting a v.i.p. or a mod.

←

I'm sorry, I thought the object of this site was to share what we all know, not what we fear is possible, nor our tempers. And you know, I don't think I'll put up with that kind of blowhard nonsense. It's bullies like you who arrogantly spray your opinion without bothering to support it with fact that ruin places like this where the point is learning and growing, not feeling like you've got the biggest on the block.

Now, if you had said, "You know, I've built this and that, and noticed this and that. This is why I wouldn't do that, and this is why I do this now.", that would have shown some manners at least. Some small nod towards courtesy and honesty. But no, you didn't. You just blasted your opinion out from your log and civilized society be damned. You didn't even bother to support your statement with any evidence. Congratulations, you are the new Rush of Luthiery!

And, don't call me cheap. For a lot of people, $5 makes a difference. And by the way, when I buy wood, which I, like others, only get to do on special occasions, I buy the board, not only the one peice with which to make my one neck. Alas, to be so charmed, that the world, and even nature itself will turn on a dime for you!

[mledbetter]

not to hijack this joust.. i mean thread..

i would clarify from the previous comment that pretty much any wood can exhibit figure.. even hard maple.. Curls, quilts, things like that area a compression phenomenon that occur naturally, based on how the tree grows.. Curls happen a lot at the base of branches, crotch wood, etc.. where the grain is compressed over time as the tree grows.. So don't rule out figure for northern hard maple.. Might be harder to come by but it does exist. Typically however, the best figure is in softer maples.. western big leaf or eastern soft, and the best birdseye is in northern hard..

[Devon Headen]

At least Wes isn't spewing a bunch of nonsense out there. Where on earth did you hear that there's no such thing as curly hard maple? Wanna talk about misinforming new builders...

[Scott Rosenberger]

And I'm sorry, but I don't  believe that soft maple will be too weak when I know for a fact that it isn't.  It is simply more prone to dings and dents.  I think that's a fair tradeoff for superior workability.

←

I'm glad I don't play your guitars, and I feel sorry for anyone who'd buy one

[skibum5545]

Actually, I don't see how this goes back to the "old pine" argument. Or, "what works for you, works for you". Soft maple works, has better figure, and in an electric instrument, makes very little contribution to tone if it's discernable at all, of which I am unconvinced. Of course, I haven't spent ten grand on my amps so how would I know?

Did you read my first paragraph? I never said, "what works for you, works for you." Also, I never said a thing about old pine; I was referring to a past argument about using pine for bodies. Sorry to be unclear about that.

Any wood contributes to tone, by definition. Any substance attenuates certain frequencies, and soft maple is no different. You don't need much of an amp to hear the tonal differences between woods; if that were the case, everyone would have a plywood guitar.

I'm sorry, I thought the object of this site was to share what we all know, not what we fear is possible, nor our tempers.

True-- however, your opinion is just that: an opinion. You had a good experience with a couple pieces of soft maple. Other people have had bad experiences. Let people know that this is what happened to you, then discuss the differences of your experience with that of others, so the forum as a whole can come to a consensus about the best way to approach neck-building, even if it means that you just got lucky with your pieces, and it's a generally better idea not to build soft maple necks. Again, I could be wrong too. That's why we're here discussing this issue.

In fact, for the sake of gathering information to see how your experience differs from that of others, I have a couple questions:

-Where do you live, i.e. how severely does the weather affect your necks?

-What types/styles of necks were they-- thin or thick, laminated, etc.

-What sort of finish did you use?

-How have they been holding up over time? Do they need constant tweaking? Any

signs of warpage, etc.?

These questions actually apply to anyone who has first-hand experience with soft maple necks. Maybe this might become a productive thread after all; who knows?

Edited May 2, 2005 by skibum5545