marksound Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I did try sanding, and came to the point where I always see glue. I'll remove the veneer, and try again. But I'd like to knoe what I could do to prevent this from happening again, as how to make the veneer less porous before glueing it. ← i have used 3m spray adhesive before with good results...there is not enough adhesive that way to bleed through. I'm pretty sure this is a great idea. The 3M Spray Trim Adhesive is contact cement in aerosol form. Spray it on both surfaces, let it get tacky, then stick them together. Be sure you're lined up before you let them touch, because they ain't coming back apart intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted June 20, 2005 Report Share Posted June 20, 2005 I did try sanding, and came to the point where I always see glue. I'll remove the veneer, and try again. But I'd like to knoe what I could do to prevent this from happening again, as how to make the veneer less porous before glueing it. ← i have used 3m spray adhesive before with good results...there is not enough adhesive that way to bleed through. I'm pretty sure this is a great idea. The 3M Spray Trim Adhesive is contact cement in aerosol form. Spray it on both surfaces, let it get tacky, then stick them together. Be sure you're lined up before you let them touch, because they ain't coming back apart intact. ← the stuff i use is not so tough to move a little after contact...it takes a few minutes to set up it is called "3m super 77 multipurpose adhesive" it works...and there is no seepage at all. the reason vinyl sealer is not a great idea imo is because vinyl sealer is surface prep for finishing a guitar....glue does not stick well to it,except possibly polyeurethane glue...and that stuff is insanely messy. besides...i have a feeling sealing one side before glueing would cause cupping of the veneer...much easier just to use different glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodBlessTexas Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 I did try sanding, and came to the point where I always see glue. I'll remove the veneer, and try again. But I'd like to knoe what I could do to prevent this from happening again, as how to make the veneer less porous before glueing it. ← An ounce of preperation is worth a pound of touchup , or as my daddy used to say "Do it right, or expend double the effort to do it right the second time." It's obvious you didn't really know what you were doing when you decided to veneer the top. I'm sure just attempting something without having a firm grasp on the subject is something all of us have done at one time or another. I know I have. With that said, go back and read this thread. Everything you need to know about what you did wrong (and how to fix it) is in this thread. The reader's digest version: Practice on scraps before you try a big job like a guitar. Point: Veneering is not easy, and veneering large pieces is even harder. Use Titebond for your veneer or any other suitable white or yellow woodworking glue, and use very little of it. If you've got a vacuum press, use a glue designed for vacuum veneering. Point: The right glue for the right job. Substitution will lead to suboptimal results. Squeegee out the glue until there is very little glue at all, then apply. Point: A little goes a LONG way. As far as making the veneer less pourous, that's really not the point. The point is not saturating the part with glue and having it bleed through. The glue needs to get into the veneer just a little to get a good bond between the veneer and the substrate, or else you'll end up with a weak bond and eventual delamination. I highly suggest reading up on veneering in woodworking before doing this again if these tips don't help you. Good luck. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitey Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 (edited) hey,hmmm,should it be worth to post and have another off topic discussion...lol would the same glue to stick fretboards to necks be usefull?i'm not sure how thin the vener is that ur working with,but i'm guessing it will work,as a fretboard isnt that thick either,but i'm guessing you should read the post above me,and westheman recomended a particular brand,so now your in good hands as long as u follow the instructions lol Edited June 21, 2005 by whitey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 CTG---my first-ever guitar building experience was with trying to lay a veneer down; I tried three times and got variations on the problems you describe. I eventually gave up. In the time I spent messing with the veneer and sanding it off, I could have built a new body from scratch with a 1/4" figured wood top. IMO veneer is just not worth the trouble unless you have a vacuum press. Even then...once you get it on with an invisible glue line, you still have a line of contact between two different woods. If this will show, then you need to fuss A LOT with the roundover on the body edge to get it to look nice, and not wavy etc. Of course if the edge looks like crap, you can always cover it with a burst. Whitey---I have seen your posts in several different threads, and you have good intentions, but when it comes to building tips you really should post only when you have personal experience with the topic at hand. Example: a 1/4" thick fretboard is miles away from a 1/36" thick veneer (a typical veneer thickness) when it comes to woodworking. Suggestions by inexperienced people can lead other inexperienced people down the wrong path, and could lead someone to bugger up a project that they've invested lots of time and money into. When I first joined this forum, I only searched, read and asked questions....for about a year....until I had enough hands-on knowledge to actually provide useful input to the small number of questions that were in my realm of experience. You should do the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batfink Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 hey,hmmm,should it be worth to post and have another off topic discussion...lol would the same glue to stick fretboards to necks be usefull?i'm not sure how thin the vener is that ur working with,but i'm guessing it will work,as a fretboard isnt that thick either,but i'm guessing you should read the post above me,and westheman recomended a particular brand,so now your in good hands as long as u follow the instructions lol ← Not that i want to get into this but errrr...that would be Titebond then, see the post above your's whitey. Jem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 My, my, my. Testy and contentious! Well, it is a full moon outside. Get out the sander and erase your mistake. I do a lot of veneering. There is, as was posted above, no way to keep glue from popping through pores if you use too much and you have a pourous wood. Squigglygrained wood is almost always pourous. The wrong glue will always cause trouble. I recommend white glue as the easiest most forgiving for the beginner. You can also get if off if there is squeeze out using acetone. Polyurethane glue is good for stuff that gets wet a lot and not much else. This is just my opinion but I've tried it and had numerous aggravating problems with it in other applications. Naasty messy ooky foamy sticky goo. Contact cement is great for Formica. It doesn't however give you a rigid enough glue line for wood veneer. It also reacts with solvent based finishes. The same pores that let the glue ooze out let the finish solvents ooze in. They can make the glue expand and bubble and you get big nasty blisters in the surface. Usually when you're halfway through the final clear coats.I've used it myself way in the past and have had numerous long term problems I've had to redo. If you seal the veneer first you are goining to have trouble because the glue will cause the veener to expand on the contact side and the finsh side will not move as much. You may actually get some buckling. I know this sounds weird but believe me it can happen. if you want a good "cheat" here goes. Roll a thin even coat of yellow glue(like Titebond) on both surfaces. Let it dry a couple of hours. Take a clothes iron and iron the two together. No I don't do this myself, 'cause I have a vacuum press, but a friend of mine built a Federal style sideboard out of crotch mahogany. This stuff is a bear to work with and he got beautiful flat results with not a speck of bleed through. It's sitting in his dining room today and looks great after ten years. My first reaction when he asked about doing this this way was "Say what??!?", but it does work. Especially on something no larger than a guitar body. Fine Woodworking had a article describing this techinque a couple of years later. As a general glue comment, the guy I apprenticed with taught me to spread glue on both surfaces with a credit card. Squeegee it thin enough so that you can just see the wood through the glue. Any thicker and you're wasting glue and causing yourself trouble.. The drawback is that you have a very short open time. You need everything ready to go and a spare pair of hands, "read: experienced helper" when you are ready to go, and have done a dry run first to make sure everything is there and fits. This goes for all glue ups not just veenering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted June 21, 2005 Report Share Posted June 21, 2005 Hey, Doc, who asked for a reasonable, informed, experienced, rational, to the point, relevant, topical, sensitive, mature, adult, non-biased opinion on this thread? Would you just butt the heck out and let the digression continue? I mean, the NERVE of some folk!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christhegreat Posted June 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Hi. I'm going to redo it with the 3M 77 spray glue, and be very careful this time. I just need to know one more thing. What product should I use to remove/dissolve polyurethane glue? Would acetone work? Thanks a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setch Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 What product should I use to remove/dissolve polyurethane glue? Would acetone work? Thanks a lot. ← I believe this has been covered - get out the sand paper... and don't *ever* use polyurethane glue for visible glue joints, or ones which may need to be reversed at some point down the line, such as neck joints. As Drak said, poly' glue is an insane choice for veneering. It's totally resistant to solvent or mechanical removal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Save yourself some more grief. The 77 isn't intended to glue down anything much tougher than paper. 3M makes a spray contact adhesive which is intended for stuff like veneer. I don't remember the number right off hand but it should be right next to it on the glue isle. Remember too, you had glue bleed through problems with your first try. It works in both directions. If you use the same open pored veneer you are likely to have problems with the finish bleeding back through to the glue and reacting. If you use a sovent based finish put your first sealer coats on very lightly and let them dry until they are bone dry and have almost no smell. The quick dry stuff skins over quickly and the solvents are literally forced down through the whole set up. I've had veneer bubble up weeks after I finished and delvered the job. That's why I quit using contact cement to veneer. Try a sample board using the yellow glue and iron technique I posted earlier. I'm not trying to be a know it all here but I have done a lot of complicated veneering over the last twenty years and I've made most every mistake that can be made at one time or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 I'm not trying to be a know it all here but I have done a lot of complicated veneering over the last twenty years and I've made most every mistake that can be made at one time or another. Amen, I know what you mean, but this guy isn't listening to a WORD. I say cut him loose, let him go, and he'll find out for himself. You can lead a horse to water...... I mean, the right choices have been listed here in overt form, and he's going to use spray adhesive? BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! Make sure you buy some extra sandpaper to remove your second veneer job too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christhegreat Posted June 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Hi. I just wanted to add thanks for doc's patience. It's my first time at veneering, and I've never worked with glues before. I just don't know a thing, I'm not dumb. I just liked the idea of spray glue because it seemed like the best way to avoid the mistake I made first. And also, nobody said first that it was a stupid way to glue something. I just didn't know spray glue was THAT bad. I find it a little sad that people start laughing or dissing. I'll use the iron method as suggested, and hope in the future I won't encounter people like drak in forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 (edited) [Amen, I know what you mean, but this guy isn't listening to a WORD. I say cut him loose, let him go, and he'll find out for himself. You can lead a horse to water...... I mean, the right choices have been listed here in overt form, and he's going to use spray adhesive? BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! Make sure you buy some extra sandpaper to remove your second veneer job too. ← Edited June 24, 2005 by jnewman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 well...i mentioned it because i have used it once...i don't do nearly as much veneering as drak or some others. i have heard many recomendations for contact adhesive over titebond,so if you find the aeresol version of contact adhesive,use it...but the 77 is not contact adhesive it worked well in my case...my veneer was krevasinga(sp)...very ,very porous...but i am like some others...i prefer 1/4" tops or thicker..and on those tops i of course use titebond.obviously titebond is a VERY good glue,if you can do it without seep through i would go with drak's veneering experience over mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedoctor Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 I was looking at a speaker cabinet making forum the other day and two really cool items showed up that may or may not be relevent. The guys that make cool veneered cabinets don't use clamps to hold the veneer on while it gets normal. They put the whole damn thing in a heavy-duty plastic bag and hook it to a vacuum for a couple hours. WAY wierd!! They also use 3M contact adhesive. I think the best looking veneered cabinet I saw on the forum was a .052" oak veneer on a tower kinda thing. Beautiful veneer! My uncle uses the aliphatic system Wes or someone was talking about where he rolls glue on real thin to both parts and irons them together. He makes those 6 foot tall clocks and doesn't spend a lot of money on wood. He tried hide glue with the iron and said he couldn't get the edges to iron down and stay there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 it's called vacuum bagging and you will find alot of info running the search function both here and on google. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 I was rereading my post a second ago, and I realized it could've come off like I was criticizing you, Wes... All of that was directed purely at Drak for going off on Chris. I've never tried contact adhesive or the 3M spray, so I'm not qualified to say anything about either's value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 I was rereading my post a second ago, and I realized it could've come off like I was criticizing you, Wes... All of that was directed purely at Drak for going off on Chris. I've never tried contact adhesive or the 3M spray, so I'm not qualified to say anything about either's value. ← drak is not "going off"...he is speaking from experience. and this is about what will get the best results,not my feelings or anybody elses...if so many of the experienced veneer guys prefer titebond or contact cement,i would use titebond or contact cement.like i said i only used the 77 once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 24, 2005 Report Share Posted June 24, 2005 Peace, and Contentment, ...to you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myka Guitars Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 You can lead a horse to water...... ← Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 drak is not "going off"...he is speaking from experience. ← Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 i would rather take advice from drak in a sarcastic tone than "nice" advice from some clueless newb. in other words,i get really sick of guys getting hung up on all this p.c. crap and ignoring the good advice being given. if you listen to the "nicest" advice,you will sometimes get screwed...and that is a fact.there is a reason guys like drak get testy when they see a potential problem...it's called caring about the quality of advice given and caring about other's finished product. you may notice alot of the more experienced guys have a bit of that attitude.and it is always the new guys that don't know much yet that seem to get bent out of shape over it. in other words.you are here to learn,not defend the world from the truth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 I think I can agree with that smile.gif. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnewman Posted June 25, 2005 Report Share Posted June 25, 2005 (edited) You know what? It was Wes' idea, not the new guy's. You didn't give him any advice, you just laughed at him while he was trying to figure out what to do. Frankly, you're just being a jerk to a guy who's trying to learn. You want to make snide and sarcastice remarks at someone, go ahead and make them to me - I don't really care, and I've got enough experience to sort out good and bad advice for myself. At least Doc actually gave him some good ideas on how to do his veneering. Edited June 25, 2005 by jnewman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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