guitarist_wo Posted July 11, 2005 Report Share Posted July 11, 2005 i just received the task to attempt to refinish and completely restore a very old acoustic stand-up bass. i'm not sure of the manufacturer or year of it yet, as i just got it last night and have not done a full inspection. i build and repair solidbody guitars and have not worked or completely built an acoustic before. although, i do repair and work on acoustic 6-strings. i was wondering how much different this project will be. this bass is about 6 feet tall, so size (and weight) is definately a difference. what i had in mind was to string and refinish the wood and get it back to a playable condition. i will post pics of it when i can get them taken. when i got it out of the attic it was in worse shape than what i had though. there is a huge chunk broken off from the bottom of the body all the way to where the neck connects. but the piece is still present, so i could possibly repair that. and i also noticed the neck is loose and it looks like it was been worked on before. other than that, it's not real bad. there are of course dings and scratches and the wood is very dry (from being in a garage attic for years and the weather getting to it). i'd probably guess it's close to 50 years old, but not certain. i would like any help of ID'ing this to a year and manufacturer if possible. advice on how to repair and restore it will definately help also. or some websites i could look into. i want to do everything i possibly can to get it back to looking marvelous, like it did the day it was bought. like i said i will post some pics of it soon, so that people can have a better idea. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted July 12, 2005 Report Share Posted July 12, 2005 Please post links to pics - I'd really like to see the bass. It sounds like a project that can be tackled with pre-planning and patience. There are tons of references on the web. Do a google search for upright bass repair or the like and you should get lots of hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot older than 50 years. There are a lot of uprights from the early 1900's still around. And yes, post pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 13, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 i will post pics as soon as i can get them transferred from my camera and get them hosted on a site. i took tons of pics of everything to help ID this bass and hopefully with a little of everyone's help, i can get a year and a manufacturer from it. i ended up taking off the whole carved top yesterday with a putty knife. lol. it was very fragile and the glue was really flaky, so it was easy to get off. i'm going to reinforce everything on it with some small skinny pieces of wood (shims) and some wood glue or the glue/sawdust combination. what would be best. i know with the pics it will be a lot easier for you all to help. i will see if i can get some of them up tomorrow. thanks for the replies and please keep them coming, as this project will mean a great deal to my friend and her grandfather (the owner of the bass and the person who bought it brand new a long, long time ago, and is unable to remember what it looked like when he bought it.) i would love to restore it back to the original color, but i may just do it to my liking and use a dark cherry stain with some sort of clear coat? what would be better for the clear? poly, laquer? how would i apply it (spray can, paint on, etc.) or what is the best way? these are all questions that i still want to get answered before digging into this project. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksolid Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 i'm looking forward to seeing pics of that bass, just make sure you follow the forum rules for posting pics, post a link if you're unsure about them but otherwise it looks like you have quite the job ahead of you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted July 13, 2005 Report Share Posted July 13, 2005 For an original finish, try french polishing with shellac. I believe that is the standard finishing method for stringed instruments, and was most likely the way it was finished originally. Even if you don't french polish it, I would stick to shellac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbrmiller Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 For an original finish, try french polishing with shellac. I believe that is the standard finishing method for stringed instruments, and was most likely the way it was finished originally. Even if you don't french polish it, I would stick to shellac. ← Bowed instruments usually wouldn't have a French polish finish. It's much more likely either an oil-based or spirit-based varnish. I wouldn't recommend staining it, either. The way the endgrain runs out in the top will make it absorb unevenly and give it a very blotchy look. Usually instruments like that will have all the color in the varnish. If you're going to touch up varnish that's already there, the way it's usually done is with a spirit varnish, like the Behlen's violin varnish you can get through Stewart-MacDonald. If you're set on refinishing the whole thing, you're probably best off using an brushed-on oil varnish intended for violins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 i was doing some searching around on the net and found some pics of what the bass looks like. it has the flame just like this one here. It's just about that color too. So, shellac might be the best? or should I get the tinted varnish from StewMac? I would love for this to have a mirror finish and get it as shiny as possible with a beautiful color underneath. I have high hopes for this bass, even looking at the state it's in now. Sorry for not posting pics yet, but that link should give you an idea of what I would like it to look like after I'm done. I will get the pics ASAP! thanks a whole bunch for all of the replies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted July 15, 2005 Report Share Posted July 15, 2005 Bowed instruments usually wouldn't have a French polish finish. It's much more likely either an oil-based or spirit-based varnish. ← I have heard of string instruments being finished by french polishing, although you are correct, it is not as common. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 sorry it took a while to get these pics up, but here they are. i have over 40 of them so that you can all have a good idea with what i'm working with. this project is very important to me and will be to my friend and her grandpa if it's all done right. so any help or advice on absolutely anything here will be greatly appreciated. well, i will get straight to the pics. here they are: Body: pre-repair Headstock: pre-repair Large crack on top Large crack on top (#2) Headstock: pre-repair (#2) Neck Joint: pre-repair Back: pre-repair Hole Near the bridge and i have the piece that goes there too Foot: pre-repair Whole Bass: pre-repair Neck Joint: pre-repair Body: pre-repair After the top came off Inside after the top came off Chunk of top plate that stayed Inside bass Whole bass after I took top off Joints inside bass Inside bass Inside bass (#2) Top after it was taken off Top after it was taken off (#2) Top after it was taken off (#3) Underneath top Small pieces of wood holding old cracks together Underneath top (#2) Tuners on headstock Headstock Headstock (#2) Back of headstock Side of headstock: notice the chunk missing on spiral part Tuners Tuners (#2) Inside bass: pre-cleaning Inside of bass before edges were cleaned Inside bass: after cleaning Inside bass: after cleaning (#2) A clean edge Another clean edge I still have some questions too: What should i use to get the old finish off? sandpaper? stripper? The neck joint is very loose but i can't seem to find a way to get it off. It looks like it was repaired before because there are 2 holes on the neck at the joint. I think it is held in by screws, but i can't tell and a screwdriver does not help in finding the screws. Should I take the neck off or just support it more with screws? Glue? The tuners are very tarnished and beat up. What chemical would be the best to get them closely back to their original shape without damaging them at all? I would like to keep all the parts original if they are salvageable, but if not, I will get some new parts. The foot or endpin is pretty beat up so I may get a new one. So, any help up to this point would be awesome. I think I'm going to start in on it again within the next couple of days. Thanks for all of your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Wow, that bass was in baaad condition! Looks like you are doing a good job at repairing it, however. I would probably use sandpaper to take the finish off. But, I've also not had any experience with striping chemicals. I would DEFINATELY try to get the neck off and do a proper repair on it. I doubt that screws would last long. I would first try some jewelry cleaning solution for the tuners. If I'm not mistaken, you can find that at any Walmart or other department store like that. If it were me, however, I would just oil them up and keep them tarnished. It gives the bass character, and they will just tarnish quickly again anyway. I've never seen an upright bass (aside from a new one) with shiny tuners, haha. I think it would all kind of depend on what kind of finish you are going to put on. If you are going for a darker finish, I think that the tarnished tuners would look good. However, if you decide to go with a lighter finish, you may want to try to clean them up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 (edited) Looks like a fun project! Reminds me of a violin I just started repairing for a guy: http://s11.invisionfree.com/Stringed_Instr...hp?showtopic=18 If you want advice from people experienced in restoring basses, I would visit the Talkbass Forums. There is a guy named KSB - Ken Smith that does alot of restorations, from what I've read. Good Luck! OOOOOOOOOh I just wanna add one more thing. What type of glue are you using? Most stringed instrument builders/repaires would suggest using hot hide glue, especially for a repair. Not only is it the traditional glue to use, but future repairmen will thank you, as you will probably notice this when you start fixing the previously repaired top cracks and neck joint. Edited July 18, 2005 by M_A_T_T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 I have decided to fix and repair all of the body damage before I do any sanding or refinishing. I figured that would be the way to go so that I do not put stress on the pieces when they are disassembled. I will take it apart, repair what needs it, put it back together and then refinish. Does that sound like a good plan? M_A_T_T posted: OOOOOOOOOh I just wanna add one more thing. What type of glue are you using? I was thinking of either using Gorilla Glue or some regular carpenters resin wood glue. I'm guessing this bass will be more on display then played, so acoustics of it after I'm done may not be very important. Although, I would still like to get some new strings for it and maybe put it in tune. I have been told that it is going to be displayed next to an old piano that has been restored, so I'm guessing it will not get played regularly. Also, once I took the top off, I found that the little pieces of wood they used to fix the cracks on the underside were rounded off on the edges. Would the be for the acoustics of it so the sound does not get trapped on the blocks? Like in this pic here. The small block all the way on the left of the picture is rounded on all 4 sides to meet up with the body. Sort of looks like a short pyramid. I was thinking of just using some wood shim material to fix all of the cracks underneath, since I'm not too worried about acoustics. Would that be sufficient? I'm also going to reinforce every joint and edge using glue to help stiffen up this old, dry bass. The neck is loose at the joint to the body and there are 2 screw holes on the back of the neck as seen here. I know there should not be holes there, so I'm guessing when it was repaired before, someone just drove 2 screws in there. When I was fishing around in those holes with a screwdriver and a flashlight, I could not find the screw heads. What would be the best way to take this neck off and then reinforce it? just glue? or screws and glue? A will probably have more questions later once I dig into doing the full repairs to it. Thanks for all of the help so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 (edited) Those little blocks are called cleats. They are shaved at the edges to make them as small and light as possible. Adding cleats adds weight and stiffness, which will change the sound. Making them as small and light as possible reduces the effect of this. The neck joint is funny, it's like it was re-enforced with bolts, but them someone took out the bolts. Using bolts to fix the neck is frowned upon by some repairers/restorers. Are you sure it's just going on display, and that the sound will not matter? I would really suggest checking out the Talkbass Forums and ask people experienced in this what to do, or could end up butchering a perfectly fixable instrument (ie - wrong glue, wrong repair methods, etc). Edited July 18, 2005 by M_A_T_T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted July 18, 2005 Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 WOW! Sorry about leading you over to the talkbass forums, I knew some of those guys were stuck-up a-holes but.... One guy, arnoldschnitzer, says he will help you via PM, if you haven't read that part yet. Again, sorry about TB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 yeah, those guys are pretty harsh. i don't think they understood at what i was getting at and i noticed from the first few replies that things were going to get ugly. don't worry about sending me there, it was definately an eye opener. i want to do it myself though. it's more rewarding that way and i'm doing it for a dear friend of mine and her grandfather. so, i guess i will not post anything back there, cause they will tear it apart and not care about anything but the money. thanks for sticking behind me and i PM'd "arnold" from that board. i will stick to this forum for help. you guys actually care. thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespresence Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 I don't think that's any worse than some guys get hit here. I think what they are saying is the bass is much more valuable than you or anyone here thought. It seems to me there are some luthiers and collectors on there that KNOW what the bass is and how much it is worth both in $$$ and in the collectibilty and rarity of these instruments. I wouldn't take the harsh comments personally but I would definitely PM a few of the guys there to find out what you really are holding on to. What I think they are saying is: I'd hate for a guy to yank apart a Stradivarius he found in the attic to get some experience without him really knowing what he is destroying........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 Just so you are aware, you can actually delete your own posts/topics on that forum. I did that once when I posted about my cheapie chinese bass I had just got. I basically got reamed for having such a cheap bass, and ended up deleting the topic. Another thing, how much money is you friend willing to put into this bass? I ask this because you mentioned you thought you needed to replace the tuning machines, which, if you didn't know, cost a few hundred dollars just for a set. Also, strings will cost you easily over $100. One more thing, here are some possibly helpful links: A webpage that lists upright bass measurements: http://www.centrum.is/hansi/mesbass.html A link to a webpage of a bass being repaired/restored: http://www.smokin-grass.com/as787.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarist_wo Posted July 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 well, i'm not sure if i'm going to get to machines. i would like to keep those original. so just cleaning them up will work for those. but, yeah strings are another story. i definately need those. the ones i got with it were in very bad shape and there were only 3 of them with it. but i'm not sure which ones i would need. i have seen all steel ones, and i have seen nylon. what would be the best for this? i know these sound like real newb questions. i just want to make sure i get the right parts and things go well after the blasting i received on the other forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_A_T_T Posted July 19, 2005 Report Share Posted July 19, 2005 When I got strings for my bass I got Thomastik Superflexibles. They were about $125CDN, as I recall. I would just get metal strings, in 'orcestra' tuning - EADG. And when you read on the package 'Arco' or 'Pizzicato', Arco means bowing, Pizz means plucking (jazz). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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