Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 16, 2005 Report Share Posted July 16, 2005 I've pulled the trigger on all of my woods and I'd like to get started as soon as I have everything together. How long, optimally, should wood be seasoned in the build environment/climate before beginning the project? If the wood is pre-cured and dried before purchasing does it really matter? The wood I'm buying is coming from Oregon. I live in AZ but I'm moving to Oregon in a month. The cap wood I've purchased has been seasoned for a couple of months in AZ already without any movement. I'll be adding a pre-AZ-seasoned Pau Ferro neck stripe and carbon reinforcement to the neck. This will be a set neck guitar. The woods I've purchased: (*Denotes pre-seasoned in AZ/already have) (#Denotes coming from OR next week) Black Limba# (2 piece lam body) Pau Ferro* (Neck stripe) Bubinga* (1 piece body cap) Ebony# (Fingerboard) Black Limba# - quartersawn (2 piece lam neck) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 you might want to purchase an inexpensive moisture meter just to be sure. a moisture content of 6 to 8% should be fine. if you're in an extremely humid invironment you might let it acclimate for a few days and then check again but if you're within those percentages you should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Where in Oregon are you moving to? We have coastal, desert, mountain, and valleys all of which have different humidity typically. This is the dryest time of the year so its about as good as you will get for timing. As a precaution you may want to seal the end grain and avoid direct sun. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgmorg Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Arizona to Oregon is a bit of a humidity change, unless you mean the high plains of western OR. I would wait a few weeks, more if I didn't have a way to keep the shop around 45% rel. humidity. I have a small part of my shop that i keep humidity controlled, and the rest is still pretty much open to the atmosphere, which is currently the viscosity of clam chowder. If I keep kiln dried lumber outside the "dry" room, it will reach 18%mc in a few weeks. It takes about the same time to get it back down to 8% You may actually want to keep the OR wood wrapped up until you get it back up there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) I'm moving from Tucson to Portland. The wood is coming from Gallery Hardwoods in the Eugene area. The Bubinga and Pau Ferro came from Eisenbrand Exotic Hardwoods in Torrance Cali. I'll look into the moisture meter for sure. Am I wrong to think the biggest problem woods have with warping is when they dry out (going from a wet climate to a to a dry one)? So, in essence, I'm guessing that the straighter/flatter a piece of wood is when it's completely dry the better off it will be going to a more humid climate....? I'm making a hypothetical guess. I would imagine that If I build and set the neck in AZ the neck mortise fit will be tighter once I get it to Portland (expansion due to moisture). Am I wrong in my guesswork? The only reason I want to start the build before I leave is because I'll have access to a good shop while I'm in Tucson, but I won't have shop access in Portland. Unless anyone knows of a pay-per-use setup, or something like that, in Portland. I got out of the carpentry industry years ago so my shop access has grown more limited over the years with moving around and such. Edited July 17, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff B Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) Heres a Noob Question. Does the Kiln dried wood really make a diffference ? I am converting to hardtail, and I have found some sources for kiln dried wood fairly cheap, just wondering if that really made a difference, or if I should find some that is dried naturally. Edited July 17, 2005 by Jeff B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) Heres a Noob Question. Does the Kiln dried wood really make a diffference ? I am converting to hardtail, and I have found some sources for kiln dried wood fairly cheap, just wondering if that really made a difference, or if I should find some that is dried naturally. ← I've read mixed reports but I've come to the conclusion that air dried "tonewoods" must be better because they're more expensive...kidding. Anyway, I ordered a mixture of air and kiln dried so I guess I'll find out. Luckily the kiln dried stuff has had plenty of time to air dry in AZ. I'm not sure how to answer your question really as I'm pretty new to building instruments from scratch myself. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in. Edited July 17, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Hopefully someone can answer because I actually came to the forum to post a very similar question. How at home can you heat treat your timber? Do you bake it? How long at what temp? Any other info that will help is most appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclej Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 scroll back a few pages and you'll find a long thread on just this subject that's very informative. in my opinion it doesn't make any difference whether kiln dried or air dried as long as it has stableized and the moisture content is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgmorg Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) Am I wrong to think the biggest problem woods have with warping is when they dry out (going from a wet climate to a to a dry one)? The biggest problem I encounter is cracking. If the wood is straight grained and clear, warping isn't a real big problem. Since you are going to a more humid clime, you should be ok, especially if you can keep your new shop at a good humidity level. If you can get a coat of sealer on it before the move, even better. EDIT: Sorry, I realise now you were asking about the wood you are having shipped from OR. My reply was in regard to taking the partially completed guitar back to OR. For the lumber- unless you can keep your AZ shop around 40% humidity, seal the ends as mentioned earlier, with latex paint or wax, and stack it with small strips of wood between the boards ( keep all faces exposed to air, except the ends ) for as long as you possibly can. How at home can you heat treat your timber? Do you bake it? How long at what temp? Any other info that will help is most appreciated. I don't heat lumber up at all, nor do I recommend it. That will crack it for sure. Kiln drying is done under controlled conditions to avoid this. Edited July 17, 2005 by orgmorg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Dude we are gonna be neighbors! I am in Portland. Don't buy any more wood until you get here. You will have plenty of suppliers in town. As for the wood. Seal the ends and wrap it up in plastic until you get it to your new shop. That will just ease up on the rapid changes while you are in transit. To respond to the heat treating and baking question. Don't... If you over dry the wood it will be worthless. Not to mention it will draw the moisture right back like a sponge. Kiln drying is a faster safer way to dry wood because it is a controlled drying process. Don't confuse kiln drying with baking wood in an oven. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Dude we are gonna be neighbors! I am in Portland. Don't buy any more wood until you get here. You will have plenty of suppliers in town. As for the wood. Seal the ends and wrap it up in plastic until you get it to your new shop. That will just ease up on the rapid changes while you are in transit. To respond to the heat treating and baking question. Don't... If you over dry the wood it will be worthless. Not to mention it will draw the moisture right back like a sponge. Kiln drying is a faster safer way to dry wood because it is a controlled drying process. Don't confuse kiln drying with baking wood in an oven. Peace, Rich ← I already purchased all the lumber I need. I was hoping to glue up the lumber, rough cut the body, cap and neck, cut the mortise pocket and tenon for the neck all before I leave Tucson in one month. If that's not possible, due to warpage considerations, then I'm stuck in limbo for an undetermined amount of time! Although, I really don't want to press the issue to the point of screwing it all up. I want to do it right. See, shop space is the crux of my issue. I need to do what I can do in AZ, now, in a real wood shop, before I hit Portland because I won't have any shop in Portland... My own shop consists of a few power hand tools (general carpentry stuff: jigsaw, palm sander, skill saw, drill, screw gun, laminate trimmer, typical hand and measuring tools...) and whatever basement, garage or backyard I can work in. I used to have a lot of specialty luthiers tools but they all disappeared from storage. As it is I'm having to slowly re-buy all of my **** to get going again. So, until I can procure shop space, a job, a place to live of my own and some new specialty tools in Portland I'm left getting as much done as I can before I leave AZ, otherwise I may get nothing done for a long time to come. I know...TMI. I'm just trying to explain why I want to start this project as soon as possible without screwing the pooch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Let me know when you get settled in Portland. My shop ain't the biggest or the best, but I am sure you could get some cutting and such done in there. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) Let me know when you get settled in Portland. My shop ain't the biggest or the best, but I am sure you could get some cutting and such done in there. Peace, Rich ← Rich Wow, thanks man, that's awesome! I'll be sure to do that, if for no other reason than to drop by and say hi, see what you've built and talk shop. My wife and I will be living at my moms in Vancouver until we can get our **** together; everything we own will be in storage until that point. Meanwhile I'm trying to do as much glueing and milling as I can before we move at the end of August so that all I have left is some finish work. I'm hoping to find a place in the Alberta arts region, or whatever we can find close to where the action is (Hawthorn, etc...). Portland has changed so much in the ten years I've been away... Alberta used to be full on ghetto and now it's the new Hawthorne (Who'da thunk?)! I used to live off Killingsworth and Cleveland when I lived there ten years ago. It hasn't changed much but it's knowhere near the ghetto it used to be. ----------------------------------------- Back to the subject: So, basically the most important part is moisture content?... IDCH: That sucks! I'm sorry to hear it but I guess it's something we all can learn from. Hopefully I won't have the same issue! I ordered a 16x20 piece of 4/4 Black Limba from Eisenbrand once and within a week of being in Tucson it was twisted beyond use and developed a split down the center. There's no way I could build anything from that! I hope that's not the fate of all Limba in Tucson... I'm hearing a dirge grow louder in the distance. Time for more Hey unclej! Which thread are you talking about? I looked several pages back and nothing seemed to fit the subject of wood seasoning. Edited July 17, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 That sucks! I'm sorry to hear it but I guess it's something we all can learn from. ← It's not such a big deal--I'd lost my interest in the guitar anyway, since I always knew it wasn't going to be something I really wanted to play. But I did learn plenty from the project. I purposefully didn't take care to reduce the guitar to exposure from the elements, so that's part of it too. Perhaps if I'd worked quicker, and sealed the wood sooner, I wouldn't have had trouble? Seems to me that's another reason for using sealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 (edited) That sucks! I'm sorry to hear it but I guess it's something we all can learn from. ← It's not such a big deal--I'd lost my interest in the guitar anyway, since I always knew it wasn't going to be something I really wanted to play. But I did learn plenty from the project. I purposefully didn't take care to reduce the guitar to exposure from the elements, so that's part of it too. Perhaps if I'd worked quicker, and sealed the wood sooner, I wouldn't have had trouble? Seems to me that's another reason for using sealer. ← That's cool. Sounds like it was an experiment from the beginning. Nice. So, sealing the ends with wax, paint or glue will keep it from drying out and warping?...Maybe I could rough cut and laminate everything in AZ (except the cap and neck joint), seal the edges with something that I can sand off (like laquer based sanding sealer) and then cover in plastic for the road to Oregon. Damn, this is becoming complicated! Edited July 17, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 So, sealing the ends with wax, paint or glue will keep it from drying out and warping?.. ← Oh don't hold me to that one...I'm just conjecturing....that's a question for the experts here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted July 17, 2005 Report Share Posted July 17, 2005 Sealing the ends (or end grain) doesn't stop the wood from drying or accepting moisture. What it does do is control or lets say slow down the process in those areas. The end grain draws and releases moisture faster than other parts of the wood. This uneven drying effect causes the damage. If you seal the ends and wrap a bit of plastic around the wood. It will slow the changes down and that makes damage much less likely. You won't stop the process just control how fast the changes occur. Yea, North and Northeast keep changing kinda blows my mind sometimes. North West just kills me. They have built so many condo towers in the last 5 years. It just amazes me. My company is working on several down by the Ross island also. I lived in the Hawthorn area for a bit, moved to Sellwood, and then bought a house off Taylers Ferry in SW. Some things have changed but its still about same as ten years ago I suppose (house prices not withstanding). Don't worry to much about not having all the tools, you will re-build over time. I have most of the larger tools to do whatever, and a good chunk of hand tools. I also have a few pieces of wood lying around. It will be cool to learn some new tricks from another builder. Peace, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappy_Squirrel Posted July 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2005 Sealing the ends (or end grain) doesn't stop the wood from drying or accepting moisture. What it does do is control or lets say slow down the process in those areas. The end grain draws and releases moisture faster than other parts of the wood. This uneven drying effect causes the damage. If you seal the ends and wrap a bit of plastic around the wood. It will slow the changes down and that makes damage much less likely. You won't stop the process just control how fast the changes occur. Yea, North and Northeast keep changing kinda blows my mind sometimes. North West just kills me. They have built so many condo towers in the last 5 years. It just amazes me. My company is working on several down by the Ross island also. I lived in the Hawthorn area for a bit, moved to Sellwood, and then bought a house off Taylers Ferry in SW. Some things have changed but its still about same as ten years ago I suppose (house prices not withstanding). Don't worry to much about not having all the tools, you will re-build over time. I have most of the larger tools to do whatever, and a good chunk of hand tools. I also have a few pieces of wood lying around. It will be cool to learn some new tricks from another builder. Peace, Rich ← Maybe there is some hope in accomplishing this before I leave. Only time will tell. Thanks for everyone's input. Moocho grassy-ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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