Input Regarding Woods For P90 Gtr

[zionstrat]

If you read following summary, I think I want to build something I have never seen before- A Mahogeny body/Maple neck to get a rather specific feel and sound- Can you give me your ideas as to what this gtr would sound like?

Goals: Build a rather unusual P90 gtr to get sounds and feel I am after- I want a hum free sound that has more bite than my humbucker gtrs and is thicker than my strats. I want to get much of the mahogany tone that I got off my old p90 SG. But I also want flexibility for a number of pup combinations. And unlike most P90 options I want the feel of a 25.5, wide, thick maple fboard, with med low action and .10 strings.

Other than a more traditional 3+3 headstock, this is how I expect it to look:

Summary:

-L5 mahogany flat top body for classic sound, mass, lots of room for electronics

-25.5 Mahogany neck with maple fingerboard- Wide, thin profile

-hard tailpiece

-locking tuners.

-Two 5 way switches control to p90 and once dual rail sc for following combinations:

P90 Switch

1. Bridge

2. Bridge+neck parallel

3. Bridge + neck series

4. Bridge + neck series out of phase

5. Neck

SC-Twin blade's 5way switch

1. single coil that is hum complimentary to bridge P90

2. Off

3. Full SC rail with spin a split

4. P90s off, full SC rail with spin a split

5. Single coil that is hum complimentary to neck P90

Right now I'm considering set of Fralins, SD Vintage soapbars or stacks for the p90s and either a cool rail or a Dmz cruiser for the middle. Master vol, tone, and dual rail spin a split- But I'm open to input-

So would you think I've got a good starting point for the sounds I am after? Or am I missing something altogether? After all if this had exactly the sound I'm looking for you would expect that someone offered it on a regular basis-

Very interested in your input-

Thanks!

[fryovanni]

I guess it would be too simple if I said- Sounds reasonable, have fun with the build.

You could try other types of wood- Lacewood comes to mind or maybe Limba. You could throw around the idea of different top woods. I don't see any reason not to go with what you have planned out though. You could even play with the scale length, but again you may be right on the money with what you have planned right now.

Peace, Rich

[zionstrat]

Thanks Rich- You are correct we really wont know for sure until I do it, but considering there's paractically nothing to compare it to, I was thinking it better safe to ask first and appreciate the imput-

Limba if I remember correctly is about same sound as mahogany? Had to look up lacewood and see it's a bit like alder- Guessing this would take me more in the strat direction-

Thanks for feedback and hope to hear more1

[zionstrat]

Bump-

Bet someone out there has some more thoughts on sound potential!

[GregP]

My thought is that you'll get a fairly baseline P90 sound but with snappier attack instead of the "bloom" that more porous woods can give you. This guitar will likely (who knows??) have a lot of bite. P90s bite like a pitbull as it is, and then the maple neck will give you snap. It will be a tricky guitar to "tame", but not impossible.

I say go for it. There's no way at all of predicting exactly what it'll sound like because even the P90s will be different from set-to-set.

Greg

[Myka Guitars]

My only concerns are that the neck in conjunction with the longer scale length may make the guitar a bit too bright. To get that full mahogany tone that you had with your SG would require a shorter scale length and a mahogany neck. Changing the scale length may give you more clarity but it will certainly add some higher end as well. Add the maple and you may not be able to capture that warm mahogany tone.

A suggestion would be to go with the longer scale length (for feel and playability) and use a mahogany neck with a mahogany/lacewood/limba body (lacewood is alot like mahogany tonally in my experience). This will allow you to get more of that woody mahogany tone with some added tonal options as well. You can always roll off the highs with a tone or EQ. The extra bite you want you will get with the p90s for sure.

The pickup selections that you would get with your dual 5-way setup is amazing. I love that sort of thing and would be that this alone would give you the extra versatility you are looking for. Very creative.

~David

Edited July 18, 2005 by Myka Guitars

[thegarehanman]

The maple neck on a lp is nothing new. Zack Wylde's signature "bull's eye" LP has a maple neck. Don't know what his scale lenght is or if he has a maple top on that thing. Good luck with your project though.

[zionstrat]

David-

Thanks for the input on woods- Will have to look into the alternatives that are available-

Glad you like the 5 way- Only 'pain' is quessing which combos I will like the most as it will be nice to move both 5ways together for most common sounds-

I'm betting that the best 3 pup combo will be the p90s in series with the full blade paralel and have this as the #3 position- But I've heard and incredible series+out out of phase before as well, and if this turns out to be the killer sound I'm pretty sure I will get right back in there and make that #3 instead-

Thanks again for the inpu!

M

[fryovanni]

Just need to make sure of something.

If you read following summary, I think I want to build something I have never seen before- A Mahogeny body/Maple neck to get a rather specific feel and sound- Can you give me your ideas as to what this gtr would sound like?

Goals: Build a rather unusual P90 gtr to get sounds and feel I am after- I want a hum free sound that has more bite than my humbucker gtrs and is thicker than my strats. I want to get much of the mahogany tone that I got off my old p90 SG. But I also want flexibility for a number of pup combinations. And unlike most P90 options I want the feel of a 25.5, wide, thick maple fboard, with med low action and .10 strings.

Other than a more traditional 3+3 headstock, this is how I expect it to look:

Summary:

-L5 mahogany flat top body for classic sound, mass, lots of room for electronics

-25.5 Mahogany neck with maple fingerboard- Wide, thin profile

-hard tailpiece

-locking tuners.

-Two 5 way switches control to p90 and once dual rail sc for following combinations:

P90 Switch

1. Bridge

2. Bridge+neck parallel

3. Bridge + neck series

4. Bridge + neck series out of phase

5. Neck

SC-Twin blade's 5way switch

1. single coil that is hum complimentary to bridge P90

2. Off

3. Full SC rail with spin a split

4. P90s off, full SC rail with spin a split

5. Single coil that is hum complimentary to neck P90

Right now I'm considering set of Fralins, SD Vintage soapbars or stacks for the p90s and either a cool rail or a Dmz cruiser for the middle. Master vol, tone, and dual rail spin a split- But I'm open to input-

So would you think I've got a good starting point for the sounds I am after? Or am I missing something altogether? After all if this had exactly the sound I'm looking for you would expect that someone offered it on a regular basis-

Very interested in your input-

Thanks!

In your summery you say Mahog neck w/ Maple fretboard. I also noticed after re-reading your post and what others posted you mentioned Maple neck. Was the plan Mahogany for the neck, and a Maple fretboard? I think thats right on the money IMO. As for Limba, it is pretty close to Mahogany mabe a bit tighter sounding in the mids (but that could just be my perception). I think you are really in the ballpark with your choices, so you should do fine.

Peace, Rich

[zionstrat]

Good eye Rich!

I originally specked out a mahogany neck with maple F board, but so far I can't find one- Warmoth will not make one, and I've had some wood oriented folks tell me that the problem is different expansion rates- Apparently maple just doesn't like to stick to mahogany or any other woods for that mater becuase when they flex they flex at different rates-

Anyone else provide more info? I really wanted mahogany/maple, but at this point looks like it would be very very expensive unless anyone has ideas-

Michael

Just need to make sure of something.

If you read following summary, I think I want to build something I have never seen before- A Mahogeny body/Maple neck to get a rather specific feel and sound- Can you give me your ideas as to what this gtr would sound like?

Goals: Build a rather unusual P90 gtr to get sounds and feel I am after- I want a hum free sound that has more bite than my humbucker gtrs and is thicker than my strats. I want to get much of the mahogany tone that I got off my old p90 SG. But I also want flexibility for a number of pup combinations. And unlike most P90 options I want the feel of a 25.5, wide, thick maple fboard, with med low action and .10 strings.

Other than a more traditional 3+3 headstock, this is how I expect it to look:

Summary:

-L5 mahogany flat top body for classic sound, mass, lots of room for electronics

-25.5 Mahogany neck with maple fingerboard- Wide, thin profile

-hard tailpiece

-locking tuners.

-Two 5 way switches control to p90 and once dual rail sc for following combinations:

P90 Switch

1. Bridge

2. Bridge+neck parallel

3. Bridge + neck series

4. Bridge + neck series out of phase

5. Neck

SC-Twin blade's 5way switch

1. single coil that is hum complimentary to bridge P90

2. Off

3. Full SC rail with spin a split

4. P90s off, full SC rail with spin a split

5. Single coil that is hum complimentary to neck P90

Right now I'm considering set of Fralins, SD Vintage soapbars or stacks for the p90s and either a cool rail or a Dmz cruiser for the middle. Master vol, tone, and dual rail spin a split- But I'm open to input-

So would you think I've got a good starting point for the sounds I am after? Or am I missing something altogether? After all if this had exactly the sound I'm looking for you would expect that someone offered it on a regular basis-

Very interested in your input-

Thanks!

In your summery you say Mahog neck w/ Maple fretboard. I also noticed after re-reading your post and what others posted you mentioned Maple neck. Was the plan Mahogany for the neck, and a Maple fretboard? I think thats right on the money IMO. As for Limba, it is pretty close to Mahogany mabe a bit tighter sounding in the mids (but that could just be my perception). I think you are really in the ballpark with your choices, so you should do fine.

Peace, Rich

←

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

Pau Ferro

[GregP]

Apparently maple just doesn't like to stick to mahogany or any other woods for that mater becuase when they flex they flex at different rates-

←

I'm a total amateur, so my opinion and perspective count for very little when it comes to this sort of thing; however, something sounds a bit 'off' with what they've told you. OK, fine, they won't make you a mahogany neck with a maple fretboard, but it's likely simply because they're not set up for it and it's too specialized a request. Probably the most popular combination of body woods that I can think of is mahogany body with a maple cap, though, so clearly they don't mind "sticking" together!

Greg

[zionstrat]

Greg-

That's a really good point- I don't know if it's because necks are more subject to warping, and guess you are probably correct- Hope I can find an affordible marhonaney/maple-

S Squrile, will have to check warmoth- If they provide mahognaey/pau ferro, maybe it woudl give the feel if not the look-

Thx

[zionstrat]

Ok, Scrappy talking to you on 2 threads at once, so let me get the Pau Ferro thing going over here- Is it possible to bleach and get a finsih/look similar to maple (color more than figuring)

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

Ok, Scrappy talking to you on 2 threads at once, so let me get the Pau Ferro thing going over here- Is it possible to bleach and get a finsih/look similar to maple (color more than figuring)

←

LOL, this is funny! Anyway, I don't know if it can be bleached or not. I've never bleached a piece of wood honestly. I've whitewashed woods but never bleached them. Seems like it might be difficult to find a wood similar in color and tone to maple but different expansion rate.

[fryovanni]

Hmmmm?????

No, don't bleach the Pau. Won't look like Maple. I am going to go out on a limb here. I may very well be missing something, but the expansion rate thing is odd to me. Maple will bond to Mahogony we know that. It seems to me that most of the harder denser woods used for fretboards would have very different characteristics compaired to Mahogony. Take Ebony- much denser, stronger etc.. even more so than Maple. Yet it is used all the time. Please if I am missing something correct me here.

Maybe he was saying the two woods tonally fight with each other. I have heard that before. I am kinda at a loss, but hopefully one of the more experienced members can shed some light on this one.

Peace, Rich

[zionstrat]

ok lets table the maple/mahogany discussion awaiting someone with more details and move to my most recent question- Mass and affect on tone-

I picked an L5 mahogany body specifically to increase mass in hopes of evening out the maple neck issue previouly discussed- I knew the mahogany body would be heavy but now hear it might be 8 lbs+ and some are suggesting that I chamber the body to reduce weight- That brings up 2 issues-

1. Would reducing the weight of the mahagoney increase the brightness by allowing the maple to have more influence?

2. Does chambering affect the tone? So far I'm being told that it doesn't but I sure dont want this is sound like a hollow body-

Appreciate any input!

[GregP]

1. Reducing the weight will impact the tone. Will it make it brighter? I don't know about that.

2. Chambering will impact the tone as well, but what's being debated is the extent to which tone is changed. To someone like David, even the smallest changes are noticeable; and when they're noticeable, they're significant. To someone like me, I might not notice a dramatic difference.

One thing I wish people (not you, just people in general) would keep in mind is that you have to have a sense of logic and perspective when approaching such problems. People (including myself) throw around words like, "brighter", "snap", "bloom", "dark" or whatever they're using to describe the tonal qualities of woods and techniques.

But you need to realize that everything's relative. Will chambering change your tone compared to not chambering? I have no doubt that it will. But to what extent? Moving your tone control from 9 to 10 will have a more noticeable effect on tone, you know what I mean? These changes are all relative. A mahogany body with a maple top, chambered to reduce weight (ie. not creating super-thin walls like on a semihollowbody) compared to a mahogany body, not chambered... with the same neck, same pickups, same hardware.... We're talking about Apple X and Apple Y, not apples and oranges, IMO. You're placing far too much importance on what will turn out to be very minor things.

And since either way, you won't have an identical replica to compare to, why worry so much?

Or the short version: A chambered solidbody is just that. It is not a semi-hollowbody.

Greg

[Scrappy_Squirrel]

Hey Zion,

The way I understand it chambering does little to effect tone except a possible minor loss in sustain but with a slight gain in resonance and a bit more bloom. This wouldn't sound anything like an acoustic. Gibson chambers their solidbody LP style guitars. The only difference is that you will need to put a cap or back on it, depending on your design.

It seems we're looking for similar tone from our respective guitars. Have you checked out the threads here on commonly used instrument woods and their objective tonal properties? I'm assuming you have.

http://jemsite.com/axes/htm_features/wood.htm

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/options/options_bodywoods.cfm

http://www.warmoth.com/guitar/necks/necks....uitar_neckwoods

Perhaps if you went for a Limba instead of a mahogany body and Limba neck you'll get what you're after without having to go with a maple neck (more resonance with a bit wider frequency range/more top end). Or, maybe you could try a maple cap with a mahogany body al-a-LP style.

The maple fingerboard story does seem a bit off. I don't understand why necks can be built from maple with any fretboard combo but you can't have a maple fretboard...seems really strange to me...

Anyway, the woods I chose for my project we're for a very particular purpose that seems to be close to what you are looking for. This is my first complete-from-scratch build so I'm going only by descriptions I have been given for wood qualities...in the end it's all subjective to what you know and want. If you want to know what I've finalized and my reasoning behind it let me know. Since we are looking for a similar sound then perhaps my combo will work for you as well.

If it's the look of a maple fretboard you're going for then it may be difficult to get if there is indeed an issue with it. Maybe pink ebony, canary wood or snakewood will do what you want. Check out - http://www.gilmerwood.com/instrument_wood-fingerboards.htm They have photos of the different exotic woods they sell for fingerboards. This might give you a better idea of what your design options are.

I hope this overly verbose post has helps you in some way. Alternately, save yourself and run, really fast and really hard because there may be no turning back.

May the tone be with you.

~Justin

Edited July 19, 2005 by Scrappy_Squirrel

[zionstrat]

greg p-

Yes at some point I have to get in the water:)

But I've used modeling since it's enfancy and my day job is in the midst of gigbites of data points so some times you get the feeling that the final answer is just over the hill:)

One think is for sure, unless the band hits it big sometime, I wont get many chances at this:)

But I'm having fun and the best I can do is the best I can do one way or the other-

So your short version sums it up a chambered solidbody is not a semi-hollowbody and that's a key point-

Much thanks!

[Mickguard]

I realize I'm coming from the opposite end of the spectrum (i.e., art) but I have to say, I think you've been reading too much.

Sure there's a certain amount of accepted wisdom about all this, and to a certain extent some of it might have some merit. Some, not all.

And I suppose it is possible that there are people with superfine hearing that can tell the difference between a Les Paul shape and a L5 shape.

But you realize you're going to go and ruin all this cogitating the moment you plug the guitar into your amp (or worse, you distortion pedal) --because at that point, most of what you'll be hearing will be the pickups/fx/amp chain anyway.

And the fact is, Gibson chose mahagony because they had a whole warehouse full of the stuff available to them. And Fender chose alder because it was relatively cheap and available. There certainly was no science behind these choices.

And I get the feeling those other fancy woods --cocobolo, putang, purplefart, etc --get chosen because their names sound fancy (well, they're good looking woods too).

As I've asked elsewhere, I'd really like to know if any actual research has quantified any of these issues. Apparently, someone did attempt to measure the difference in sustain between a Stratocaster and Les Paul --and guess what? The Stratocaster sustained longer, but the Les Paul sounded like it sustained longer. In other words, "sustain" don't mean jack...

The upshot is, if you're truly scientific like you say, then you'll start making prototypes instead of attempting the build the 'perfect' guitar right off the bat.

Start with the guitar you want --I personally feel mahogany is quite beautiful, I like it without a cap --- and maybe you'll get lucky and end up with a guitar you like the first try out.

If not, harvest the hardware and get to work on the next one.

Oh yeah, and I can't believe you're choosing the shape for the sound (or mass) --do you actually WANT that shape?

[zionstrat]

Justin-

At this point I think I probalby should go back to the drawing board and look at other woods- After all, I've come this far, I know exactly what sound I'm after, I can't build until fall, so why not learn a little more down the road- Thanks again for the input and glad to have a brother in arms as I learn!

IDCH- You have a very good point regarding the origination of all of the best practices- They did have to start somewhere, and they knew far less about wood than we know now-

But that's really the point of my search..they could afford to experiment, they were looking for a wide variety of sounds, and most important, they did not have precidents to work with. Another way to look at it is that if Mahoganey has not turned out to be a really good LP sound, and yet steel was, the most famous guitars of all time might have been Nationals:)

Or another way to put it is that there as some combinations that just never made it because they don't work and I don't want to go that direction...short scale bases and aluminum neck guitars cetainly have a small fan club, but in general we all know why they aren't top dog.

As far as scientific, I wish I was..and I wish that others could have been moreso up to this point, but the physics have probalby just been beyond our bandwidth - Although I bet this changes significatly over ourlifetimes as processing power and dta storage costs continue to plumet-

But I'm surpoised that you are surprised that body shape affected my choice- Keep in mind, I'm not after what's popular, or even looks good (althought from does tend to follow funciton)- Instead I know exactly what sound I am after, and the closest thing I can buy parts for would be an SG shape- But with a bolt on neck the SG tends to be neck heavy (due to 25.5 neck lenght)-

So I already needed more weight just to offset the neck weight-

But 25.5 also tends to brighten up the sound, and I far perfer the feel of a maple fboard whihc also brightens sound- So I decided to offset this brightness with greater mahagony mass which requires an LP, explorer, L5 or other larger body-

Out of the larger body styles, I choose the L5 as one on my buddies had an incredible L6, and the L5 should be similar with a tummy and forearm cut-

But in the end you are exactly right..I've got to choose one of these and go for it-

Thanks for all of the input- I'll be travelling most of the next 2 weeks and expect to order parts when I get back-

Cheers!

Michael