Selling Guitars On Ebay

[rhoads56]

I was referring to Perry's comments. Drak, you were more conservative.

It just seemed like instead of giving out some advice, Perry instantly did a "OMG, not another idiot putting the cart before the horse" assuming Byron was just another one of those people who dream too big for reality.

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Show me one example where ive been proven wrong. Name one person who has come into this forum, with no experience, and turned it into a full time business. Why wouldnt we assume Byron will be the same. He doesnt have guitar building experience, he doesnt even have the tools yet...

Anyway, off that soap box. I think this may have been a misunderstanding on both Bryon and my part. But reading the responses that Perry made, I would have been discouraged too at first.

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then my point was made. Maybe i should not say anything at all, and let these pipe dreams continue, in an unrealistic manner, while all the OTHEr newbs encourage it.

About the cabinet making/furniture building, Perry you made it sound like you were more credible because of your 12 years of woodworking experience. Like it meant more than someone who did not have that experience before building guitars. Maybe I'm reading these threads backwards?

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My point was that i knew about machinery and how to use it, i had extensive hand tool experience, and id done EVERYTHING needed to build a guitar (carving, rebating, slotting, mortises, tenons, finishing, gluing, planing, sanding, staining, etc etc), i just hadnt put it all together in the one projest called "guitar". MOST of the people on this forum come here and want to know what a chisel is, and "which way do i hold it?".... "whats a router?".... bla bla.

Coming in here as a newb, and posting about dreams of being a luthier full time, with no experience, is like claiming you're going to be a huge author, and write books for a living, before you have ever learnt to spell, or read.

But, by all means PROVE ME WRONG.

[billet cutter]

so what u guys are saying is i wont get $20.000 us for my first billet tele on ebay (thats it i give up) how do u make a small fortune in guitars START OF WITH A LARGE FORTUNE

[erikbojerik]

There's a reason people call it "Flea-Bay", everyone's looking for deep discounts. I think it is useful for getting some parts cheap (and some woods if you know the prices and what you're looking for), and I manage to make a little cash to help pay for tools. But make no mistake, if I was a business I'd be in Chapter 11 (or is that Chapter 7...??).

Guitar building is already a great distraction from the daily grind, and it will keep me away from the TV when I hit retirement age.

[Myka Guitars]

I've read through this thread and a few like them in tha past. While I understand why everyone is concerned that newbs have their heads in the clouds (I still have my head in the clouds, it's where the creativity is). I also don't think it is a good reason to completely trash what they are trying to do. Let them learn and see what it is all about. Guide them so that they can succeed, don't tell them all the reasons why they will fail (that's the reason why all the newbs leave you know). At the very least answer the question or keep out of the discussion. Isn't this what we're supposed to be doing, I mean in a totally supportive and positive way? Or am I on the wrong forum?

Now ByronBlack, to answer the question:

When I start building my guitars, i'm going to build two at a time (one for me, and one to sell to cover the cost), have any of you had any success in selling guitars on ebay, and if so how do you go about pricing them?

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No, I never sold on eBay because of the stated reasons that you may not get what you need out of them due to the cheapskate nature of eBayers. That being said people do buy custom guitars from eBay. The MIMF forum put together a bass project as a way to generate money to support the forum and they chose eBay as the way to sell it. There are better ways to sell though. I address these below.

Concerning pricing why don't you revisit this old post about starting out. The thread went along similar lines until I decided to actually answer the quesion like I am doing here. There is a basic outline of how you might figure your expenses and see if it is worthwhile for you.

I don't intend to sell my very first guitars - these will all be pretty much experimental to get my skills and technique down. I'm more thinking of later down the line once i've got most of the essential tools and have built a number of test subjects.

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Not selling your first guitars is very smart. That you have thought of this (and stated it in the 3rd post of this thread) tells me that you have already planned this out quite a bit and that it is obviously not a pipe dream to you. You are simply looking for some advice about how you might sell your guitars once you get them sellable. A very good quesion and one that doesn't get the proper respect around here. So far you are on the right track. Planning ahead is the best thing you can do and getting some ideas about the unkown (actually starting to sell them) is another great way to realize your path before you actually take a step. You, like a lot of us, are here to try and learn as much as we can from others so we don't make the same mistakes.

If you have had any success in selling them elsewhere other than ebay, I would be interested in hearing what you did.

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I sell direct through my website and I also work very closely with a handmade guitar dealer in San Diego. His goal is to keep guys like me in the shop while he sells and deals with the clients (a Godsend!). If you decide to work with dealers then you must add into your prices their commission. You should already have something close to that worked in if you intend to cover the cost of going to shows (show fees, hotels, gas, food, etc), advertising, web hosting, etc. Having a dealer can eliminate a lot of these expenses but you have to pay them instead. It works out because instead of hustling your work you get to build a few more guitars that easily covers their commission.

A thought on pricing. If you are trying to compete with Fender, Ibanez, or the like then forget it unless you can mass produce them. I couldn't make a living if I charged $1200 for a guitar. I decided at the beginning that I would stick with high end guitars and charge what they are worth to me. I have found a very interested and enthusiastic clientele that was looking for exactly what I offer. If I had compromised or listened to all the 'great' advice I would either not be in business or I would be struggling trying to outsell Gibson. I do my own thing and I am happy. To condense this into a word of advice I would say that you should get your work to a professional level and charge professional prices. If you do start off lower please cover your costs so you can keep at it then slowly start to increase prices to eventually make a good profit and a living.

You don't want to wind up like Perry's friend:

i know a guy who makes better than average bodies. Buys the woods off ebay (figured maples), buys the body woods direct from mills (alder, mahogany etc), labours over the bodies for hours and hours, days even, lacquers them to a high standard, and then lists them on ebay for LESS THAN THE COST OF THE ORIGINAL MAPLE TOP.

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This guy is either independantly wealthy or a complete fool. This is not good advice or a good example. It illustrates the inevitable demise of a poorly planned business model. He failed to charge for his materials, overhead, and wages (and even profit). You can't make any money giving your work away. ByronBlack needs real life examples of business success, not business stupidity and failure.

I am full time and I would never go back to the 9-5 working for someone else. No way! I started against the advice of all my friends and family. They said I didn't have the business experience, it was too risky, etc. Well it was my dream so went for it walking away from a lucrative computer programming career. I have been building for many years but I didn't refine my designs until about 5 years ago. After I got the designs down and have some good guitars to show I started hitting the circuit. I have been showing and selling guitars now for 3 years. I have a good 8 month (and growing) backlog and make decent money (I will equal my computer career in another 6 months). For the first year I did not break even. I did some repair work and sold guitar woods. I bought large boards and cut them up into acoustic guitar sets which I sold on eBay for 3-4 times what I paid (when I charged less they didn't sell!). This gave me free wood and meager income. It also kept me in the shop so I could build guitars. I ate ramen noodles and make some kick ass guitars. Now I eat real pasta with marinara!

Now before this thread goes in the direction of "Let's see this guys work first." Let's just recap that he is in the planning stages (he stated that himself). He is also working out his designs so he may not have anything finished just yet. I personally will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is just like any of us and can learn how to build a high quality guitar if he wants to put all his energy and creativity into it for a while. If I had come here a few years ago you guys would have told me to give it up. Let's get real. There is some serious talent here and a lot of it is only potential. That's why we are here, to learn, grow, expand, and get pushed past our limits.

Here is one example that I found very inspiring: First guitar effort on MIMF. A perfect example of what someone without prior woodworking experience can accomplish if they put their minds to it. Can you imagine this guy not making it if he wanted to go for the dream?

Now let's keep this positive and helpful. State your concerns but please try and answer the questions that this guy has, not the ones you think he needs to hear. Let's try and promote the guitar building dream! That's what it is and always will be, a dream. Every artist is living the dream while others either support it or try to bring it down. This just makes it all the more beautiful when another one takes flight.

~David

Edited August 12, 2005 by Myka Guitars

[Mr.Churchyard]

I would like to add that perhaps the veterans and pros don't realize anymore the incredible quantity and quality of information on this board, for which they are responsible most of the time... When I got Hiscocks book I already knew most of what was written inside just by reading the posts on the forum and the tutorials on the main site... I firmly believe that if one reads up all that is written here, asks a few question, works with good material and is careful leaving all the time needed to do it he can do a great work...

Edited August 10, 2005 by Mr.Churchyard

[Mickguard]

Now let's keep this positive and helpful.

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Words from a master...

[ByronBlack]

David,

Thank you for answering my questions in some depth, I do appreciate it, and i'm sure many 'Newbs' like myself will gain some useful tips and get an idea of what is required to attain their goals.

[Stew]

BRAVO, DAVID! (standing up). Finally someone who believes in the half full rather than half empty glass mentality. Excellent advice.

[mledbetter]

David, you're always a class act around here and very generous with your encouragement and advise. Thank you very much for your openness.

I'm a programmer too.. maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel lol.

[Mr.Churchyard]

maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel lol.

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Yeah, it's a neon light sign with the words "No exit" written on it.

[Guitarfrenzy]

I can see how Drak and Perry can generalize newbs who come to the site with big dreams, when almost all of them have faded away, never to been seen anymore. I think that it's frustrating to see people who haven't even build a guitar, come up with big plans, without knowing if they are capable of building a quality instruments in the first place. I'm not being negative here, just realistic. So, I can see how they can generate this point of view of newbies.

I honestly think if you would build your first instrument, then see if you enjoyed the process and if you would even want to make a career out of this in the first place. It's great to plan ahead, but each of of have talents in certain areas, so see if you truly have a passion for it and most important, the talent. I don't care how hard I try, I'll never be able to slam dunk a basketball like Michael Jordan did, it's just not in my god given ablilities to do that. So would I be setting myself up for failure if I'd never picked up a basketball in my life, and had plans to become as good or better than he was? Probably so. Dreams are great to have, but we should know our own limitations. I also don't believe that you should give up on your dream though, that's why you should follow through with your first couple of guitars, then if you still have the passion for building guitars then I say go for it!!!! Maybe Ebay isn't the place for you though, and you don't need to be rigid in your approach. You should stay flexable and open minded to ways you can make your dreams come true. Never give up on your ideas, but here's a quote that I found very much true.

Ideas are funny little things. They don't work unless you do.

Anonymous

Myka's right, you should chase your dreams of selling guitars if that's what you want to do. There comes a time though, that you must put your dream into action, otherwise it's a hope without any way of becoming real. My best advice to you, is build, build, build , then when you have your craft down, take it to that other level. Nothing wrong with planning, but you have to get in the boat first before you can decide where your going. Don't give up though.. I look forward to seeing your guitars in the future.. good luck bro..

Matt Vinson

[Stew]

maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel lol.

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Yeah, it's a neon light sign with the words "No exit" written on it.

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Or a train.

[M_A_T_T]

I honestly think if you would build your first instrument, then see if you enjoyed the process and if you would even want to make a career out of this in the first place.

Yes. See if you can, or even want to do it. I had those dreams, and spent a few years and thousands of $$$ equiping my shop with big power tools to build guitars faster and easier, but by the time I had the final power tool I figured I needed, I had completely lost interest in making guitars. Now I find myself using about 85% hand tools making my first violin, and have even pondered selling some of my big machines...

[Myka Guitars]

Some of you may find it frustrating when someone without exeperience wants to know a bit about the business side of things. I find it equally frustrating that you don't take the time to share experiences that you have had so that people can actually see how it works (and let them make up their own minds). I have seen the posts by newbs that you are all referring to but ByronBlack did not come across that way. There were many clues to indicate that he is carefully thinking it all through ahead of time. You know, planning it all out. Isn't that what we all tell people who want to layout a guitar to find fretboard and bridge dimensions, etc? This came across to me as a question from someone who wants to plan things out ahead of time. So, why not entertain the idea of selling before you get into it too deep? It would certainly help people decide whether or not to make it a business or a hobby.

I totally agree that people need to build a guitar first (more like several) before you seriously decide to get into business it. But you might just want to to learn the skills you need to achieve your goal of being a guitar builder if that is what you feel your calling is. Or you just happen to have a hobby building kick ass guitars and people start offering you cash for them. Or you have no idea what you are getting into, sink a lot of cash into tools, and fail utterly. Not one of these scenarios is enough for me to withhold some basic information that would help someone think through the prospect of starting a business.

Bottom line is it is hard work to build quality guitars and even harder to try and sell them at the same time. There are a number of things that have to be realized before you can realize a realistic income from it. It is more than smart to think of all of this first before you do make the mistake of sinking a whole ton of cash into your shop building that first guitar only to find out that you don't know how to run a business to pay for it all.

My whole point here in this thread is to give people the information they need to realize what it would take to follow through with guitar building as a business. I do not feel it is my place to to question whether or not he will do it, or if he is even capable, or to expect that it will be more than a thought experiment. My role here is to simply give him the information he requested since it seems like he already figured out that he needs to build a quality guitar first. That is the easy part of this whole equation. The fact remains that there simply isn't enough thoughtful discussion on how people can succeed at this as business.

[Doeringer]

Great post Myka, and thanks for all of yours and everyone elses help and insight. To answer Perry's question, we made 6 (4 gits, 2 basses) before we sold one. We were only building for ourselves, someone liked what we made and asked us to build one for him. We wound up selling 6 at a profit in the early 80's. We recently got back into building for the love of it, we really missed it. We never planned to get rich or do it as a living and if we never sell another, it will be well worth the effort. To answer the original question, eBay is a tough market and usually is difficult to get top dollar.

[loquito5765]

selling a guitar on ebay right now, go check it out, its a epiphone sg-310, when i posted this it was at 51.01. click here to see

[Digideus]

Ive noticed lots of luthiers selling bits on ebay. Inlayed fretboards, necks, bodys, etc.... which is great for the amatuer luthier or for someone who wants to get their hands dirty putting a guitar together.

Personally I would put stuff on ebay if I thought it was good enough, simply because you can reach a massive audience for not a lot of work. As to wether amatuers should aspire to it, Id say yes. We all start somewhere.

That said however, the comments made in response to the question of selling guitars were extremely relevent and should not be ignored. Theres no point selling your first guitars except to friends cos you need time to develop your skills and actually become comfortable building them.

[Stew]

What I recommend is that you can sell the guitar but be up front about it. That's what I did. I had no friends who either needed a guitar or had the cash to buy a new one. So what do I do now, sell my guitars on the Pennysaver? Yeah right, nobody would have ever called me (no pics, not a familiar name).

So I didn't sell my first guitars until I was totally convinced it was playable, and I mean well playable, not in the general sense. If I didn't think the guitar was worth selling, I sold off the parts. Also I disclose that I'm selling as is, no mods, no pickup swaps. And I list everything that is wrong, if any. You know, finish crack at the neck pocket, small 3 mm ding on lower horn.

At least you'll get some money back to finance your next project. I've rolled over my money at least 10 times doing this, no profit. If I made a profit, I would maybe buy an upgrade in pickups for my next project.

I think ebay is a good place to hobby your work. Beware, you'll want to keep everything you make at first. I won't get rid of a guitar until I've played it live first (live being worship band at church. We're very alternative rock sounding so I can get away with using distortion at times). Then the novalty wears off and I'm onto the next project. It's funny, people at church think I have this huge guitar collection. They have no idea that I just keep making more.

I was happy with the hobby thing for about 5 years and now I'm ready to make some money at it. I'm not banking on making money but it can't hurt to try. At least to make some extra money for buying more tools. I don't know what my wife would hate more, guitar gear or tool gear.

[Southpa]

I got a good kick out of an experience I had yesterday. I was out back fixing a fence when I happened to hear this fantastic guitar playing. I walked out front and there was this little guy walking down the street with a beat up old Squier and one of those little Roland cubes. He was just wailing away on EVH's Eruption, using a penny as a guitar pick, while walking down the street.

I approached him and managed to get his attention. "Hey buddy! Wanna see some guitars? Follow me". I brought him inside and asked him to play a couple of my projects as I needed to get some feedback on my work. Now this guy didn't know SQUAT about tone woods, hardware or even how to do a proper setup, but he sure knew how to play! He said he makes some money playing on street corners (busking) downtown. He doesn't get bothered by the cops much, mainly because THAT DUDE CAN PLAY!

The thing that impressed him the most was how my guitars were setup and how they stayed in tune. And he asked me about 3 or 4 times why I haven't been trying to sell my guitars. I told him I won't be doing that until I can produce near flawless work. I got 9 guitars now, 3 from scratch and the rest have been modded of refinished.

Anyway, if you want to sell guitars you need some EXPOSURE. If that means having to drag people in off the street, like I do, then so be it. But you need the right kind of exposure. People who can actually PLAY the damn things and can give some REAL criticism and feedback on your work. Then maybe they will tell some friends who are looking to buy a guitar.

I'm sure this guy, Julian was his name, can't afford to buy any new guitars. Hes a semi sort of street person, don't even know if he has a roof over his head. And at the time he said he was pretty wasted from sharing a jug of cider with a buddy earlier in the day. When he picked up my 24 fret SG I swear he looked like Angus Young, same posture and stance, 'cept for the blond hair. I made a sale anyway, sold him a guitar pick for 1 cent.

Edited August 13, 2005 by Southpa