Suggestions On Pore/grain Filling

[subject17]

Hello Everyone,

i was wondering if you all have any suggestions on what to use for a clear grain filler or what would work best... the guitar i am working on is an ibanez AX 7221 (mahogany) that i have stripped and dyed a pretty blue burst.

i have also dyed the maple neck and headstock (pretty burst on the head too)...

I did purchase some grain filler from the guitar reranch, however it is like a pine color, and since i had already dyed the body, i didnt want to go though tinting the filler because i thought i might ruin the stain that i have done.

That and it's oil based and i dont know how it and nitro will react. guess i should have done more lol...

Do you all have any suggestions on what could be substituted for a clear grain filler?

I just want to preserve the way its currently colored.

Thanks again in advance, i hope someday i can make a guitar a tenth as nice as what you all produce.

-RS

[AlGeeEater]

Do some searching next time. There was a thread like this. Exactly the same to be honest. Try some 2 part epoxy from home depot.

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=18559

[subject17]

2 part epoxy? thanks, i did try doing a search by the way. there were just so many options. CA glue, epoxy, clear grain filler from stew mac, that i didnt know what would work best. so i wanted your opinions, thank you for the reply though. 2 part i will try.

any advice on application?

thanks again -RS

[AlGeeEater]

2 part epoxy? thanks, i did try doing a search by the way. there were just so many options. CA glue, epoxy, clear grain filler from stew mac, that i didnt know what would work best.   so i wanted your opinions, thank you for the reply though. 2 part i will try.

any advice on application?

thanks again -RS

←

Sure, you can buy the stuff that comes in one tube. You push the top thing down and shoots equal parts of hardener and the other part(can't seem to remeber the name). Mix it well, then I used a razor blade to spread it out. Then wipe of all of the excess. If you don't it will take forever to dry(and I learned that the hard way Good thing it was just on scraps ). Then let it cure, sand back and see if you need to re-apply it. Repeat until you are happy, then start painting!

[subject17]

hey thanks man!, just to be certain. i can still use the 2 part on a transparant finish too and still be able to sand it flat right?

thanks again. sorry im such a noob but this is almost more fun than actually playing!

thanks again!

-RS

[AlGeeEater]

hey thanks man!, just to be certain. i can still use the 2 part on a transparant finish too and still be able to sand it flat right?

thanks again. sorry im such a noob   but this is almost more fun than actually playing!

thanks again!

-RS

←

You should be able to, don't quote me on it though.

Oh yeah, DON'T get it on your hands! I let it dry like a dumb@ss(not knowing it was really on my finger) and it's a female dog to get off.

[subject17]

lol. yeah. i have neoprene? (spelling?) gloves for that. i dont mind that getting glued together. as long as its not my fingers. i cant imagine having that happen.... although im sure it will at some point.

i'll start a 2 part epoxy thread so i can see if it will work for when doing a transparent finish.

thanks Algee.

-Rob

[AlGeeEater]

lol. yeah. i have neoprene? (spelling?) gloves for that. i dont mind that getting glued together. as long as its not my fingers.    i cant imagine having that happen.... although im sure it will at some point. 

i'll start a 2 part epoxy thread so i can see if it will work for when doing a transparent finish.

thanks Algee.

-Rob

←

Glad I can help, somewhat

[westhemann]

i have used that 2 part epoxy before...and i will use it again on the guitars i am building now...nothing i know of makes a tougher sealer coat.and it weighs about the same as regular sealer...so why not?

but try to get the big bottles of it...you can get it from stewmac,etc...all of the usual places...the small tubes at home depot are frustrating to me.

[AlGeeEater]

but try to get the big bottles of it...you can get it from stewmac,etc...all of the usual places...the small tubes at home depot are frustrating to me.

←

I know, sometimes they don't squeez out equal parts. I think the hardener is more liquidy than the other part

[MzI]

the best way to go is to squeeze the whole thing out at once then you know you will have equal parts mixed. I got a smalled tube of it so I could do one side at a time and then let it dry then sand it off. Its kind of a pain to try and get the stuff on there when the guitar is hanging in the air.

MzI

[ubersam]

I tried the 30 min epoxy from Home Depot, can't remember the brand though. It had a light yellowish tint to it, something to consider, you might end up with a slightly greenish guitar (blue+yellow). Well, after some enthusiastic sanding, I didn't realize that I've sanded off more than just the excess and I was back to bare wood. I recently tried CA glue, Krazy glue to be exact, on a headstock repair. It spreads easier, and it sands much easier than epoxy. So, if I ever need to fill grain/pore again I'll be using CA glue.

[westhemann]

ca is COMPLETELY clear...use it for a super transparent sealer coat

[subject17]

wow thanks guys, i never expected so many replies. this place rocks,

now i know that as long as im careful this will come out beautiful.

it may only be an ax7221. but its going to be an entirely different beast when im done with it. my beast.

just a question about if i should use the stew mac glues?

thanks again guys.

-RS

Edited August 19, 2005 by subject17

[ryanb]

Try the System 3 Clear Coat two part epoxy. You can get it from LMI or numerous other places. There's also the SB112 version for really porous woods.

[Drak]

Chances are 9 out of 10 that you'll sand back and hit your color coat and the whole thing will have to be stripped back raw and started over again if you try to use any type of grain filler now.

For the stage you're at, you need to move on to just finishing it with your finish, it's too late for any grain filling now, especially with a blue finish, especially with a sunburst.

You got the steps mixed up, but you can't interject grain filling in now, you just have to skip it and move on to the next step which is just finishing it, and use the finish itself as the grain filler.

It's either that or you sand it all the way back, start over, and do it the correct way next time, but you cannot add in a grain filler over top of a burst.

[subject17]

i see. i was looking for more like a clear pore filler like CA glue or epoxy though. would that really mess it up? or is there a chance at not running it though. i dont mind a bit of extra wieght in the body...

Well you know what they say... you dont learn without screwing up.

lol... well i'll try a thicker layer of epoxy or ca glue and see what happens.

worst case. i have a gripload of dye leftover. so im not worried about that too much.

i love this burst though. and i did it wiping it on so im kinda shocked it turned out so well.

i'll see if its able to be filled properly with clear.

thanks,

Robert.

Edited August 19, 2005 by subject17

[subject17]

just a question drak, i've seen some of your awesome transparent finishes,

how did you manage that without filling afterward? it just doesnt seem like tinting the pore filler would make it that vibrant or look very good at all for that matter.

just wanting to know, your work is one of the reasons i want to learn this so bad.

its just awesome.

thanks again,

Robert S.

god i hate being a noob.

[Doc]

I know that I haven't built or finished that many guitars but I spent a lot of years making a living finishing.

Why doesn't anyone want to recommend useing semi-paste wood filler? Why do you all seem to want to use glue as a pore filler? If epoxy glue from Home Depot was a good alternative:

1) The geeks that make the stuff would repackage it and put it in the finish section at three times the price and call it "Two part wonder Filler"!!

2) The numerous woodworking magazines tht solicit articles from anyone who does this stuff would be resplendant with articles about this wonderful alternative product. They love this kind of stuff. Especially Fine Woodworking.

Neither happens for a reason.

Semi-paste woodfiller, which is a beast to work with, still is better and cheaper than the alternatives that seem to be touted here so soften.

I hate doing high gloss no grain showing finishes. You haven't lived untill you've done a 48 square foot open grained mahogany table top for an **** retentive architect for an engineering firm. However, I can skin the living daylights out of a paying customer because so does every other finisher in the world. Maybe except for some obsessive-compusive wackos.

Semi-paste can be tinted to any color by your local paint shop. It has good working open time and is simple to fix minor screwups. Benjamin Moore is not the worlds best, I think Behlen's is, but it's readily available and the stores that sell it 99.9% of the time can do quality color matching.

This is just my opinion. And I know that I will probably get bashed here but I'm old and cranky and semi-masichistic. Hey I've been married for 32 years, what so you want?

Fill, stain, seal, finish. Play. Simple

[subject17]

the issue i had doc is that i screwed up and dyed before a grain fill. im now at the point where im trying to figure out how to finish with out the need for a complete sandback.

i am thinking of trying sanding sealer and rattlecan poly (on a budget what can i say) after i get a little better at this and not screw up as much (though i must say it looks great, i never thought i could pull of a wipe on burst!) then i will buy spray gear.

i wanted to do nitro. but everyone seems to think the poly is more durable and wont check later on.

thank you for your input i appriciate all that i can get.

the CA/epoxy method was just to grain fill because i have dyed and sanded back so the grain is already popping out. i just need to fill it clear so it doesnt have any issues later.

any comments/suggestions/ideas/flames will be most appriciated and i most likely at this point deserve it. lol

thank you

-RS

[westhemann]

1) The geeks that make the stuff would repackage it and put it in the finish section at three times the price and call it "Two part wonder Filler"!!

they do...it's called "famowood glaze coat high build epoxy coating"...at least that is the brand i have in my hand.

lmii calls it "system 3 epoxy filler"

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts....+3+Epoxy+Filler

keep up with the times ,"old" man!

[Drak]

i see. i was looking for more like a clear pore filler like CA glue or epoxy though. would that really mess it up? or is there a chance at not running it though. i dont mind a bit of extra wieght in the body...

___

Once you put your colors on, the grain filling is over. The only way to fill the grain divets in the finish now are to use the finish itself, which is a PITA, but pretty much the only way now. It's not the end of the world, I've done much much worse.

...But I have a WOD and you don't.

___

Well you know what they say... you dont learn without screwing up.

lol... well i'll try a thicker layer of epoxy or ca glue and see what happens.

worst case. i have a gripload of dye leftover. so im not worried about that too much.

i love this burst though. and i did it wiping it on so im kinda shocked it turned out so well.

i'll see if its able to be filled properly with clear

___

OK, you asked for advice, if you want to throw it all to the wind and fly blind, your choice (I understand tho, I am a complete hardhead too and I probably would do the same thing years ago )

___

just a question drak, i've seen some of your awesome transparent finishes,

how did you manage that without filling afterward? it just doesnt seem like tinting the pore filler would make it that vibrant or look very good at all for that matter.

___

I rarely EVER use ANY pore filler at all. I also never use any sealer. I shoot a lot of coats, let them dry thoroughly (months) and sand back to level, that's my usual M.O., and maybe not the best way, but it's my way, and I'm happy with it. Not promoting it, just stating a fact.

Or I intentionally use woods that don't need pores filled, or that aren't hard to fill with the finish itself.

___

just wanting to know, your work is one of the reasons i want to learn this so bad.

its just awesome.

thanks again,

Robert S.

god i hate being a noob.

___

Thank you very much for the nice words. The 'I hate being a noob' is the most telling point here. What you have never seen are the hundreds of mistakes I've made along the way, and the too-numerous-to-mention refinishes I've done, and all the products I wasted doing things the wrong way until I finally learned what works and what doesn't (for me anyway).

I simply will not accept crap from myself, nor finish and play crap I made, and I have made a few truckloads of crap along the way.

Along the way, I was learning things, one issue at a time, until I finally made enough mistakes to have learned all the paths to avoid. maybe not all the bad paths, I still make mistakes, but enough to keep me out of trouble most of the time now.

I was always amazed at guys who thought they would get it perfect right off the bat, I never thought that way, I knew I had a long road to travel, one step at a time, so I never got too frustrated when I screwed up (a good thing too, all the screwups I've made). It's about the journey, not always about the destination, try thinking like that occasionally, and accept the screwups as completely and perfectly normal part of the learning process.

As the saying goes, what don't kill ya will make ya stronger in the end. This is what learning is, overcoming the falls with acceptance and a smile and a 'guess I gotta try it again' attitude.

Personally, if you asked me my advice on what to do here, knowing the size of Mahogony pores, I would tell you to just strip the whole thing down and do it over again, and this time you learned something new to add to your mix for the next time.

The next one is always better than the last one.

I think that's where some people screw up, they make a mistake, consider the time they have put into it, and just go ahead anyway, even tho they know they just screwed up, they will accept it and go oh well, didn't want to waste all the time I put into it. But they know it's crap, they know they screwed up. But for some reason they accept it.

That's where we part ways. It's not necessarily about 'talent', it's about what level of crap are you personally willing to accept out of yourself, and if you don't want crap and want quality, it's going to cost you more in time and effort than crap will.

Crap, after all, is crap.

Or, crap (attitude) in = crap (product) out.

What you make is really just an expression of what's going on inside yourself. If your peaceful, calm and confidant, no amount of setbacks will stop you from getting where you want to go. You have the patience, the calmness, And the gnarly-ass attitude to let nothing get in your way of your destination. My destination are guitars that when I strap one on, I feel so damn good about it because I didn't settle for crap that I truly enjoy playing them.

[subject17]

simply amazing.

well i have taken your advice and stripped it back as far as i can get it without altering the body. im going to be much more careful this time.

and as far as the WOD goes.... that sounds like fun actually. (too bad im a little destructive rofl)

i will be trying some things this time around a bit differently.

what do you think about polyurethane clear coating?

your right though. i have the patience to think this through to the end.

though i may have been a bit overzealous to see the finished product,

that damn blue can be so enticing....

thanks again.

-RS

[Drak]

what do you think about polyurethane clear coating?

I have never used poly in any form, so I couldn't comment. I'm a Nitro guy all the way.

Maybe look up Jeremy's painting tutorial, I think he covers that pretty well, or someone else who has used it successfully will answer you.

We all want them to be done, but what one person considers done and what I consider done might be 2 different things.

I think you will be happy in the end that you decided to start over and add in what you learned.

There are some guitars that I did up to 8 different finishes on, but that eighth one, WOO-HOO boy! It was -All- worth it when the right (and quite spectacular) finish was finally found, and I didn't settle for 70% there, or 80% there.

[subject17]

i completely understand. i know the body has one defect that i have to live with though (brother abused it when i lent it to him) but its my baby still. so i figured a good recoating and recoloring from that craptacular matte pewter finish would be lovely.

this is one guitar thats not going anywhere ever. and until it either breaks. (i'll repair in that case) or spontaniously combusts, lol (knocks on wood... err. the guitar rather.) its here to stay. i look foward to actually doing right this time around.

thanks for all the help. and i have started a rattlecan poly topic already on this to see what i can learn.

thanks everyone.

-RS