Stupid Fretting Question

[j. pierce]

I tried a search but am uncertain of the terms to query to find my answer although I'm sure it's out there.

I'm doing some fretting, and using the StewMac "Jaws 2". I can twist that red handle until I can't get it to go any further (maybe I'm just not strong enough) and I'm getting frets that look like they're sitting flush, but on closer inspection, I realize that I can just barely slide a piece of paper under the fret.

Okay, I don't remember having this problem with a hammer. But I payed enough $ for this press I'd like to get some use out of it.

So out of curiosity, I go and check some store bought guitars - on my epiphone, I can do this, slide a piece of paper on some/most of the frets. On my peavey I can't. So now I'm more confused.

I imagine I need the frets more seated than this, and probably need wider slots or smaller tangs, although I ordered my slotted boards and fretwire both from LMI and believe they should match. It certainly goes in okay, it's just that last little bit.

[soapbarstrat]

I find this "jaws 2" tool quite interesting, especially with all those little thumbscrews here and there. I can't quite grasp what's the purpose of them, except I assume that smallest one is what keeps the caul holder from falling off the threaded rod.

I don't have that tool, but I do have something "somewhat" like that, based on a big C-Clamp. I keep wondering if buying a "jaws 2" would be a wise upgrade from my cheap (but effective) system.

I am able to press tight fitting frets with my pressing system. It's a very effective way of stiffening up a "spongy" neck. And I don't settle for any gaps between the board and fret. I'll check for gaps with a .001" feeler gauge, and if that gauge fits under the fret, I do something to fix it.

Now, I have to ask :

Is the gap all along the fret or just in the middle or the ends ?

are you checking for the gap when the caul is still tightly clamping the fret, or after the caul has been loosened ?

did you use the fret-caul like a "radius gauge" to see how well it matches the fret-board radius ?

Are the fret-slots deep enough (they need to be slightly deeper than the tang depth) ?

Are you using any kind of glue ?

Someone did a review of the 'jaws 2' on another forum, and he said it would bind-up real bad, so that to get it to unscrew loose again, he had to wiggle the hell out of the clamp to get it to unbind. Then it seems the whole thread was deleted, and then shortly after that, StewMac became a sponser of that site . LOL !

[j. pierce]

I find this "jaws 2" tool quite interesting, especially with all those little thumbscrews here and there. I can't quite grasp what's the purpose of them, except I assume that smallest one is what keeps the caul holder from falling off the threaded rod.

They just help remove some of the play in the clamps while you're setting things up - they actually end up being a little more helpful then they seem at first. The tool seems to work better by setting the caul on the fret and then bringing the bottom part up to meet the back of the neck. The set screws are nylon, I set them with enough tension that parts slide okay when I push them, but don't fall out of place before I start tensioning the clamp. The small one, yes, holds the caul holder in place.

I don't have that tool, but I do have something "somewhat" like that, based on a big C-Clamp. I keep wondering if buying a "jaws 2" would be a wise upgrade from my cheap (but effective) system.

Don't fix it if it ain't broke, I suppose. Does your C-clamp based thing have one of those sliding rod type handles for increased leverage when tightening? That's the only thing I'd really like more for this tool - it's hard to press things enough with the twist handle if anything gets slippery from sweat or whatever.

I am able to press tight fitting frets with my pressing system.  It's a very effective way of stiffening up a "spongy" neck.  And I don't settle for any gaps between the board and fret. I'll check for gaps with a .001" feeler gauge, and if that gauge fits under the fret, I do something to fix it. 

yeah, I'm off to get feeler gauges on my way to work tonight, I feel like that's a more accurate way to judge than seeing if a receipt slides under there, since I'm not always sure if the receipt paper is going under or folding.

Now, I have to ask :

Is the gap all along the fret or just in the middle or the ends ?

All along. Although, on the real "problem fret", (the one I couldn't get with the hammer) it's more on the end.

are you checking for the gap when the caul is still tightly clamping the fret, or after the caul has been loosened ?

After.

did you use the fret-caul like a "radius gauge" to see how well it matches the fret-board radius ?

Yes. It seemed to be spot on, but now that I look at things, it seems like it might be worse off than I thought. At least, not *perfect*, in a couple of spots. I also seem to have a problem with the "crown" of my board not being dead center in the neck - I've still got my 12" radius, but it's not centered over the neck towards the upper end. I don't know how much this will effect things as I get down there. Doing a few more frets just now, it seems to be okay, but it takes a little more playing with the Jaws to get it to work.

Are the fret-slots deep enough (they need to be slightly deeper than the tang depth) ?

yup, this I made certain of. Should be plenty deep. I'll check again, but doesn't seem to be an issue.

Are you using any kind of glue ?

No glue. I wasn't comfortable with it, really. I noticed a bit of springback after I finished pressing a fret - maybe glue would help this, but I'm just not sure how to do it properly.

Someone did a review of the 'jaws 2' on another forum, and he said it would bind-up real bad, so that to get it to unscrew loose again, he had to wiggle the hell out of the clamp to get it to unbind.

Hrm. I haven't had that problem at all. It is a little difficult to get loose at times, but not any more than I've experienced using clamps of this type. Just got to give a small nudge in the right way and it pops off fine.

So maybe I should have played more before crying for help, I don't know. I did't finish the whole neck the other night when I posted this, I was a little frustrated and figured I'd stop rather than put in a whole neck of messed up frets. Part of the problem was obviously my using a new tool. I played around some more this afternoon. Pulled the worst offenders. I tried beveling the fret slots a little more after running across that mentioned in the Jaws 2 instructions and on LMIs fretwire page. That seemed to help a lot, actually. It's not so much that the frets aren't going in - they just don't get that final seating. . I'm not actually sure how much to do that, (bevel the fret slots) but I assume as long as the bevel isn't so wide it sticks out from under the fret crown, or so deep the tang can't grab, you're okay?

Other problem seems to be that maybe the problem frets weren't going in straight.

I guess I'm not sure what my problem is, but things seem to be working better. I'm still doing a fair amount more hammering than I had planned, and that's frustrating. I bought the press to have to avoid hammering so much. I guess so far it's less work than hammering was last time, so it's all good, but it seems to be less of a return on investment than I had hoped for. A lot of it seems to be me. I guess I was just hoping someone else would have a miracle cure for me

Hopefully I'll get this thing down. Practice practice practice.

Thanks for the help.

[ryanb]

Yeah, you definitely need some bevel there. How much depends on your fret wire. The underside of the fret wire, where the tang meets the top, is not a sharp right angle, but has some radius to it. If you don't chamfer the slots enough for that amount of radius, they can hang up there and not seat all the way down well.

[Maiden69]

By reading Rob's reply and your answers and the bit or reading and practice I have done in the last few days I think that maybe, just maybe some of those slots are not deep or wide enough for the tang size on your fretwire. The bevel on the top is not that neccesary, and I haven't had to bevel any of my test slots yet, and I'm hammering them... But I think that before I move on to my neck I will get the press system, I don't like the jaws thing... I will search for a heavy C-clamp to make an alternate to the press, just for re-fretting set necks and neck thru. Other than that I think that I will fret either before installing the fretboard like Setch does or before profiling the neck on the press.

[j. pierce]

By reading Rob's reply and your answers and the bit or reading and practice I have done in the last few days I think that maybe, just maybe some of those slots are not deep or wide enough for the tang size on your fretwire. The bevel on the top is not that neccesary, and I haven't had to bevel any of my test slots yet, and I'm hammering them... But I think that before I move on to my neck I will get the press system, I don't like the jaws thing... I will search for a heavy C-clamp to make an alternate to the press, just for re-fretting set necks and neck thru. Other than that I think that I will fret either before installing the fretboard like Setch does or before profiling the neck on the press.

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Well, I've been able to hammer the frets in the last bit on most of the ones I've had problems on. I know I didn't bevel the fret slots last time I did a fret job (with a hammer) and things went okay, but the rosewood seemed much softer than the cocobolo I'm working with now.

As far as the depth, the slots are a fair amount deeper than the fret tang all the way across the board. I'm uncertain how much deeper off the top of my head, but I checked it with a card and didn't think I'd have any problems. How much deeper than the fret tang does the slot actually need to be?

I'm still uncertain about the width and wonder if I shouldn't file down the barbs on the fret tang a little bit - does someone have a rule of thumb for what size tangs go in what slots? LMI says their fretboard slots are slotted to " accommodate our fretwire as well as other standard wire", but they sell a variety of fretwire.

My slots are slotted to .023" wide, and my fret wire (LMI's FW74) is listed as having a tang width of .020" and a tang with barb width of .037". Does this work?

The oddest thing is that my first slot (my zero fret) I used a piece of bass fretwire (I'll be fretting a bass neck next if I ever get this figured out) and the bass wire has both a deeper and wider tang and I didn't have problems at all.

I'll finish this fret job up tomorrow and see how it goes, I guess. I think I'm getting the hang of it.

[Setch]

Guys, *do* please bevel the slots - you'll thank yourself when you have to pull a fret later, and you don't chip the fretboard to oblivion.

Bevelling is recommended for a reason!

[soapbarstrat]

Yeah, I always bevel, even though the fret-wire I currently use has very "crisp" edges.

You should check for gaps when the fret is still clamped tight. All of my fretting for the past 10 years has been on necks that were already fretted, so I don't have the "advantage" of dealing with a brand new slot. I'm dealing with slots that already have "barb trails", so what will usually happen when I press in a fret is I have to use glue (super-glue) and leave it clamped for a few minutes, otherwise, it will probably pop up slightly, at least in the middle, because I over-bend the wire, * a little*. I actually think the extreme over-bending for pressing is pretty crazy. That's for hammering.

I sometimes have to pull some frets back out, and for example if it's a 12" radius board, and I had over-bent the wire to a 10" radius, it's even still a 10" radius when I pull it back out. It springs right back to that radius. Because of this, the over-bending that I do has become less. Over a year ago, I'd totally freak-out if I had to pull a fret back out for whatever reason. Now I kind of like doing that, because I can almost install and remove frets as easy as someone can take the lid off a jar of pickles. (removing the glue is the only hard part)

You can also use a few different cauls with the jaws presses. One to get the ends down first, then a couple more to get the rest down, even one that will just get the middle. I was doing that with mine, but it seems like I don't really need to do it.

I'm thinking of making some *notched* cauls so I can press in frets with the neck strung up. Not that I really need that, but I have some pretty cool fretting tools, and I always want more. *my* fret tang expanding pliers even have a diamond shaped *carbide* punch for making new barbs in the fret-wire.

oh yeah, my C-Clamp has the typical "sliding handle".

I recently bought a bar clamp at harbor freight for a possible attempt to make a copy of the 'Jaws 2'. Problem with it, is the bottom jaw is very "out of square" to the bar. I've used it as a regular clamp, and I don't like that wood handle a whole lot.

you don't need the slots to be more than 1/64" deeper than the tangs will go.

The bevel on the fret-slot doesn't need to be extreme. just enough to keep a rounded edge on the fret from keeping the fret crown from sitting all the way down.

[marksound]

Funny how a thread pops up just when you need it.

I have all the stuff to make my first neck and I've been studying a lot (the scarf joint thread is a huge help) before I jump in and ruin a blank, but the slot beveling is something I'd never seen discussed before. Is there a preferred method for easing the top of the fret slots? A small triangle file, sandpaper?

[soapbarstrat]

For a long time I used a triangle file, but currently I'm using a little square file, because it seems to be a better size for beveling both sides at the same time.

[Guitarfrenzy]

I have all the stuff to make my first neck and I've been studying a lot (the scarf joint thread is a huge help) before I jump in and ruin a blank, but the slot beveling is something I'd never seen discussed before. Is there a preferred method for easing the top of the fret slots? A small triangle file, sandpaper?

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I'm sure there have been other threads showing slot beveling before, but just wanted to point out I explained it in the Making Of A Strat thread. Not sure if you've read it before, so that's why I brought it up.

For a long time I used a triangle file, but currently I'm using a little square file, because it seems to be a better size for beveling both sides at the same time.

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Never used a square file to do this before, but I bet it would work better. Nice tip..

[marksound]

I'm sure there have been other threads showing slot beveling before, but just wanted to point out I explained it in the Making Of A Strat thread. Not sure if you've read it before, so that's why I brought it up.

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I've read your tut a couple times, but that musta slipped by me. Sorry. I'll go reread it again while I'm sitting in the corner.

[j. pierce]

that's what I'm using, a little square or triangle file - and I have to say - remember to do this *before* you put the binding on. It makes life a lot easier.

Oh well, live and learn!

[soapbarstrat]

I have no choice but to do the bevel if the binding is already there, but there's not much to it. I do think this beveling business would go a lot better if the same logic was used as when they came up with that re-fret saw, with the blade only 3/8" wide.