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Lacquer-never Again


sveb

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I finished what will be my one and only experiment with lacquer. I always thought I was a pretty good painter having shot trucks with Imron, and having a ton of experience around the body shop. I'll never mess with lacquer again. It's too messy, fussy, doesn't like changes in heat or humidity, and takes WAY TOO LONG TO DRY. It doesn't age well, yellows, and isn't durable over the long run. Right now I've got a bass body drying on the bench that I problably won't be able to assemble for 2-3 months. I hate to wait! Next time it's over to my buddy's body shop for a state of the art polyurethane base coat/clear coat job. I can see the point for those who need lacquer for vintage restorations, and those who still cling to the romance of old school lacquer, but for the guitars I like to mess around with, there are no advantages to lacquer whatsoever. I guess I always have to learn the hard way....

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We typically use a cure time formula of 2 days per coat for lacquer. It's not neccessary to wait 3 months unless you used a very low solids lacquer.

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We typically use a cure time formula of 2 days per coat for lacquer. It's not neccessary to wait 3 months unless you used a very low solids lacquer.

But do you wetsand your guitars after you spray them? If you're going to wetsand you'll want to wait longer than if you don't, to avoid future finish shrinkage.

peace,

russ

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sveb,

I've used the water-based lacquer from Stew-Mac.

According to their schedule it's a few hours between coats and a week before polish.

It's worked OK for me.

I'd be interested in hearing other opinions.

Good Luck,

d ward

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...I only ask because I noticed some orange peel in this pic:

http://www.tundraman.com/005/Back-Body-Small.JPG

peace,

russ

That's a lot of orage peel on that baby. Wet sanding is one of the most important parts on the polishing stage. If you don't do it correctly you will have either some orange peel or you will see the marks of the sandpaper. I like Draks take on this... But you will have to do a search on his posts to find out... try abralon pads on the search topic...

Nice guitar and nice job on the cover like Russ mentioned, but the finish ain't par with the craftmanship.

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Auto poly is great for solid bodies, but you'd never want to use it on (say) a hollowbody or an acoustic. Its just too hard and would damp out the resonance.

The nice thing about nitro is that the layers melt into one another, not so with poly. But with some auto poly formulas, all you need is one good coat. With nitro, its not uncommon to go with 10-15-20 thin coats.

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Lacquer cure's slowly. I give it a bare minimum of a month, more if I can get away with it. For the waterbased stuff I use more often, I wait at least 2 weeks, since it tends to keep shrinking hardening even after the theoretical 1 week cure time. It ain't fast.

I thought Polyesters, anyway, burned in if sprayed withing a limited time frame.

If you want a fast finish that won't kill you, and don't mind if it isn't bullet proof, French Polished shellac is the way to go.

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There's nothing wrong with lacquer at all, hell i'll take it over thick @$$ poly anyday. I spray McFadden's Nitro straight from the can, and buff after 2 weeks. Why? I use a heatbox, and a heatbox speeds up the cure time like no tomrrow I probaly should wait another 2 weeks before buffing with it, but usually the coats are pretty well cured. I've never had a problem with shrinking back or soft coats.

FWIW, I have to agree with Ed Roman on one thing, thick poly, no matter what instrument it's on kills resonance. I think that's the only thing i'll agree with him on :D

Edited by AlGeeEater
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There's nothing wrong with lacquer at all, hell i'll take it over thick @$$ poly anyday. I spray McFadden's Nitro straight from the can, and buff after 2 weeks. Why? I use a heatbox, and a heatbox speeds up the cure time like no tomrrow I probaly should wait another 2 weeks before buffing with it, but usually the coats are pretty well cured. I've never had a problem with shrinking back or soft coats.

FWIW, I have to agree with Ed Roman on one thing, thick poly, no matter what instrument it's on kills resonance. I think that's the only thing i'll agree with him on :D

You don't have to put poly on all that thick. Granted, even if you put it on thin, it will still be slightly thicker than most nitro finishes. However, what you lose in thickness, you gain in hardness. The main thing most people complain about when they mention thick polies is the idea that it dampens vibrations. Poly cures much harder than nitro, and how hard or soft the finish is is a factor in how much it dampens vibrations. I'm willing to bet that you'll never ever be able hear an audible difference between a solid body that's been properly sprayed with poly or nitro.

As for hollowbodies, the increased strength and stiffness of poly would logically make the top resonate less, making poly an obviously bad choice in such a situation.

If anyone is really that concerned with hearing the "natural tone" of a solid body, they'll french polish it.

I thought Polyesters, anyway, burned in if sprayed withing a limited time frame.

Most two packs have a 15-30 minute burn in time. I've never seen a witness line in any poly I've sprayed.

peace,

russ

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You don't have to put poly on all that thick. Granted, even if you put it on thin, it will still be slightly thicker than most nitro finishes. However, what you lose in thickness, you gain in hardness. The main thing most people complain about when they mention thick polies is the idea that it dampens vibrations. Poly cures much harder than nitro, and how hard or soft the finish is is a factor in how much it dampens vibrations. I'm willing to bet that you'll never ever be able hear an audible difference between a solid body that's been properly sprayed with poly or nitro.

As for hollowbodies, the increased strength and stiffness of poly would logically make the top resonate less, making poly an obviously bad choice in such a situation.

If anyone is really that concerned with hearing the "natural tone" of a solid body, they'll french polish it.

Yep, but was I referring to a "well done" poly finish? Nope, I was referring to factory finishes such as Fender and Jackson, they put the poly on THICK. Believe me, I can hear the difference between a fender strat painted with poly and and the straight I painted with nitro.

I agree with you, poly finishes sprayed properly and thin are just like nitro, look at PRS'. They're sprayed with polyester, but not thick poly and they're very resonant.

Edited by AlGeeEater
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We typically use a cure time formula of 2 days per coat for lacquer. It's not neccessary to wait 3 months unless you used a very low solids lacquer.

But do you wetsand your guitars after you spray them? If you're going to wetsand you'll want to wait longer than if you don't, to avoid future finish shrinkage.

...I only ask because I noticed some orange peel in this pic:

Back-Body-Small.JPG

You did a really good job with that control cavity cover, by the way.

peace,

russ

Russ, not sure what you mean - that is not a guitar we built or sprayed. Ours are glass smooth with no orange peel. It ussually takes us an entire day to sand/wet sand and buff out one guitar. We mostly use a urethane base that will move with the wood and not crack. We don't use nitro lacquer very often becuase it cracks so easily.

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Ah, very sorry about that. My mistake entirely. I confused you w/ the gotm entry this month of tundra man guitars. I guess since you're both new and commercial builders, I confused the two of you. My appologies once again. In my defense, you don't have any images of your guitars on your site :D.

peace,

russ

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This topic comes up from time to time, and it's just a debate that will probably go on forever. In an thread three years earlier, I pointed out what exact finish PRS uses on their guitars.. link!!! I have nothing against laquer, but it's just not for me either. I want a strong finish that will hold up for years to come, and not so thick that it might dampen the sound anymore than laquer would. I think if you use the auto poly correctly you can achieve both easily, and have done so in the past, time and time again. I would love to do a blindfold test, everything the same, but with one Fender sprayed with laquer, and the other with poly. How many people really think they'd hear the difference? I'm not saying laquer is a bad thing, just has too many disadvantages for me to use.

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I hate lacquer as well....doesn't blend together to my liking and I have trouble keeping dust out of it..1 because im a newb and 2 because i don't have a proper booth..anybody know any tricks? don't mean to be interupting the current thread just curious. I talked with a local auto body shop and he said he would spray for 40 so i am considering going that route.

Steve

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Honestly, I've gotta say that whatever its faults may be, Nitro is really a pretty easy, forgiving finish to apply. Blush? Spray some thinner, on, goes away. Sand-through? Non-issue. Touchups? Possible, and easy when wet. Sandability/buffing/looks? Great, when brand new.

Waterbased finishes are touchier, and from what I've gathered, 2-pak/catalyzed polys are even more toxic, and at least as fiddly if not more so to apply.

Re: nitro cracking, that shouldn't happen if you're applying it thin, ever, and certainly not if you use isntrument-grade nitro which is more flexible than 'off the shelf' stuff.

Edited by mattia
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But do you wetsand your guitars after you spray them? If you're going to wetsand you'll want to wait longer than if you don't, to avoid future finish shrinkage.

...I only ask because I noticed some orange peel in this pic:

Back-Body-Small.JPG

You did a really good job with that control cavity cover, by the way.

peace,

russ

Actually, that guitar was finished with Tru-Oil. That area of the back was a little rough yet when I shot the pictures. I had to go back and address a few small areas on that guitar after the finish had fully cured. That area right below the heel on the back was one of them.

When I shoot laquer, I do wet sand to remove any orange peel. And I let the finish cure for at least two weeks.

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You know, I hear a lot of talk of how challenging it is to get a good finish with poly, but I really can't say I've ever seen the challenge. I've never had any problems with poly. As long as you use common sense regarding temperature, application, etc, you should do fine. The biggest issue about polies, as far as I'm concerned, is the health hazzard.

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That's the -only- thing keeping me from shooting polyurethane or polyester, the health hazard. Plus I don't have a proper booth, yet, and I wan't to shoot quality finishes, I'm not going to half ass it. Constant temperatures, curing booth, up to code booth. I just gotta talk with the EPA and the fire department and get it rollin' :D

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I hate lacquer as well....doesn't blend together to my liking and I have trouble keeping dust out of it..1 because im a newb and 2 because i don't have a proper booth..anybody know any tricks? don't mean to be interupting the current thread just curious. I talked with a local auto body shop and he said he would spray for 40 so i am considering going that route.

Steve

Honestly, I've gotta say that whatever its faults may be, Nitro is really a pretty easy, forgiving finish to apply. Blush? Spray some thinner, on, goes away. Sand-through? Non-issue. Touchups? Possible, and easy when wet. Sandability/buffing/looks? Great, when brand new.

Waterbased finishes are touchier, and from what I've gathered, 2-pak/catalyzed polys are even more toxic, and at least as fiddly if not more so to apply.

Re: nitro cracking, that shouldn't happen if you're applying it thin, ever, and certainly not if you use isntrument-grade nitro which is more flexible than 'off the shelf' stuff.

Dust is problem no matter what you are spraying. Nitro lacquer dries very quickly which is one of its pros. Not sure what you mean by not blending Steve - it blends extremely well. Its excellent for burst finshes when you want the faded multi-color look. And nitro is very forgiving for touchup, it all just melts together. While you can do drop fills and touch up with urethane it does not work the same as nitro lacquer.

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Lacquer - never again

It's like saying; "Food, never again" because you ate something you didn't like, in my case, sprouts or celery.

To me a lacquer is a non-opaque protective coating. It is misleading to say so many of the generic statements in this thread because the danger is (especially between different countries) that what you accept as lacquer can mean something totally differnt to someone else. We should be aware this is an international forum with life existing well and unaided outside of the USA. :D

That way with more accuracy we avoid giving people bum info or steers that may get them into trouble.

Phew, I'm glad to get that off my chest.

Now, do you mean solvent-based nitrocellulose? Polyurethane or polyester(1 or 2-pack)?

Acrylic (water-based or solvent-based)? :D

Also people who say "I won't use poly(-urethane or -ester?) because of the 'health risks', are you still happy to spray on solvent-based nitrocelluloses or acrylics? They still have the same health risks, it's just a case of being sensible with the ventilation.

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Lacquer - never again

It's like saying; "Food, never again" because you ate something you didn't like, in my case, sprouts or celery.

To me a lacquer is a non-opaque protective coating. It is misleading to say so many of the generic statements in this thread because the danger is (especially between different countries) that what you accept as lacquer can mean something totally differnt to someone else. We should be aware this is an international forum with life existing well and unaided outside of the USA. B)

That way with more accuracy we avoid giving people bum info or steers that may get them into trouble.

Phew, I'm glad to get that off my chest.

OK, what 'you' and the minority define lacquer as is your issue. Nitrocellulose lacquer can be transparent (in your case 'non-opaque' ) or it can be mixed with pigments to become an opaque color. It's the SAME exact thing, whether or not it's opaque or clear. CLEAR COAT can be many types of paint, like polyester or lacuer. I don't really see what you're getting off your chest as nitrocellulose is the same exact thing whether it's clear or not. :D

Now, do you mean solvent-based nitrocellulose? Polyurethane or polyester(1 or 2-pack)?

Acrylic (water-based or solvent-based)? :D

Also people who say "I won't use poly(-urethane or -ester?) because of the 'health risks', are you still happy to spray on solvent-based nitrocelluloses or acrylics? They still have the same health risks, it's just a case of being sensible with the ventilation.

I mean solvent based nitrocellulose lacquer. Again, it's the same thing whether or not it's clear or opaque. I won't use poly because of the health risk, because I don't have the proper spray booth (ventilation) which prevents me from wanting to shoot it.

Chris

Edited by AlGeeEater
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