Pott Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I always find that bolt ons have much more of that inyourface factor very often. A bigger sound, more aggressive, less smooth. No matter what woods are used, I feel it's always the case. But of course who would not want the neck through heel and upper frets access. I thought about a different bolt through design, where the body and neck would be assembled seperately and the hell carved later on, as a neck through guitar would usually be assembled. It'd involve a lot more routing of course. The idea is to have the body in one piece as in slab bolt on guitars, but half of the thickness from the back is removed for the length of the neck. The black block at the end corresponds to the full body thickness on the actual neck, for those who like the looks of the neck through wood differences. The only problem I can think of for this would be if the guitar is designed with a tremolo. Routing for the cavity would take away too much thickness and there wouldn't be enough grip, if any, to bolt through. The bolts could be countersunk so that they don't poke through, and then covered with plastic rubber covers or whatever other solution. The grip should be similar if not better to a standard big heel bolt on system, and allow carving of the heel the neck through way. That's just a basic idea, I didn't do drawings or anything. I want to build a guitar with a Floyd so I couldn't do the prototype this summer as I'd have hoped, but if anyone has any experience with bolt through designs, I'd be VERY interested in whatever you built or experimented with. Here's a theoretical cutoff at the center of the neck: I hope you guys get the picture. It could prove to not be too stable though. Anyway, tell me what you think. I bet I'm not the first to have thought of this so if anyone tried it, let me know! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3Va1L Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 well, that's basically the same as a neckthrough with a cap, only bolted instead of glued... The only proble I can see is making you body to fit your neck exactly... Other than that it's doable (though arguably useful...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pott Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Exactly the same problem as with a neck pocket though Except the perfect fit has to be kept for a longer length, simply enough. It's not easy by any means. I think it is useful myself... It's true that most people don't care for the heel, but some really do. And I prefer the bolt on sound way more. And there's no glue involved in this either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perhellion Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-UNIQUE-PROJECT-GU...1QQcmdZViewItem Saw this the other day (before this thread). I think it is interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psw Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I prefer the bolt on sound way more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjensen Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I'm wondering....have you played a neck through that has single coils, a 25.5 scale and 250k pots? Im inclined to think those factors have a great deal more to do with tone than how the neck is connected. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pott Posted March 30, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 I don't know, my bolt on has a powerful humbucker through no volume pots in the bridge position and so has got my neck through. Both have a Floyd too. The key things are this: The absense of 'close' contact between neck and body woods, the pickups being bolted into the body as opposted to in the neck (as in neck through). This is what makes a neck through sound different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I'm wondering....have you played a neck through that has single coils, a 25.5 scale and 250k pots? Im inclined to think those factors have a great deal more to do with tone than how the neck is connected. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MzI Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Id hafta agree with Mickguard that there are way too many factors to be able to say that the overall sound of a bolt on is better then a neck thru. Its well and all for you to have an opinion, everyone does, but I think that the sonic difference is so unnoticeable mainly for the fact that, are the bolt on guitar and neck thru you have from the same pieces of wood, i.e. neck body fretboard, are the electronics exactly the same etc. Also unless you are highly trained I find it hard to believe that you can hear the tonal differences between a bolt on a neck thru. I have multiples of each and set necks and I honestly cant tell the differece. The only thing I do notice is the type of wood and the type of pickups that are in them, that makes the real difference in the sound of the guitar not the neck joint. MzI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbingham666 Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 What you're saying is exactly what Brian May did to his red special? correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radrobgray Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 i have 2 guitars with emg81s and ibanez JS and and LTD M-350. the ibanez is a bolt and the Ltd is a neckthru and i can clearly hear a difference in tone from both the guitars. i ibanez has more "snap" and the ltd is mellower. this how ever could be due to different body woods so i cant really say for sure that it makes a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 so i cant really say for sure that it makes a difference. Exactly. But what's great about building your own guitars is that you can add in the features that YOU want on your guitar. Doing it that way is going to contribute to your enjoyment in playing the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 I believe if the bolt on neck joint is done well there should be very,very, very little chance of it being a factor. The bigger factor that would come into play would be the woods used. An all Maple neck thru guitar with Mahogany wings will sound brighter than a Maple bolt on with a full Mahogany body. The body wood is more significant with a bolt on because there is more of it, and vice versa neck wood on a neck thru. If you have a Mahogany neck thru count on it sounding warmer than a Maple bolt on. Of course this is only speaking to the selection of wood and neck joint. Pickups,strings, electronics, amp, and so forth will play a bigger role in the overall sound. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pr3Va1L Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 I think even a 250k pot compared to a 500k pot would make a bigger difference than the neck joint... There's really no way to compare the sounds anyways, really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjensen Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I have a Strat with a really bad neck joint (american ) And I have a strat with a perfect joint. I really dont hear any major differance that I could atribute to the joint. The sustain is about the same. Go figure. Seems to me that almost all of the tone related "facts" arent really very factual. I think that well built guitars have an appeal that has very little to do with tone. Heck my $180 dollar 70s aria Epiphone POC sounds differant, but as nice in its own way, as my $3000 dollar custom. They dont compare quality wise, but they are both really fun to play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I have a Strat with a really bad neck joint (american ) And I have a strat with a perfect joint. I really dont hear any major differance that I could atribute to the joint. The sustain is about the same. Go figure. Seems to me that almost all of the tone related "facts" arent really very factual. I think that well built guitars have an appeal that has very little to do with tone. Heck my $180 dollar 70s aria Epiphone POC sounds differant, but as nice in its own way, as my $3000 dollar custom. They dont compare quality wise, but they are both really fun to play When you say really bad neck joint. Do you mean the joint is not solid(loose neck?). If you have a neck joint that is not solid it will effect sustain(simply dampens the strings). If the neck is solid it will perform. As far as tone related "facts". Well it is not all BS. However the effects are much less noteworthy than if we were talking about an acoustic. Neck wood is noticable because it effects string vibration much more, but then again neck construction plays a big role in this also. All that said. The difference between fresh strings and dirty tired string is so much more noticable. I guess you could dismiss the effects of wood on tone when you compair it to other factors. Then again it does effect the sound of the instrument, so it shouldn't be ignored. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjensen Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I have a Strat with a really bad neck joint (american ) And I have a strat with a perfect joint. I really dont hear any major differance that I could atribute to the joint. The sustain is about the same. Go figure. Seems to me that almost all of the tone related "facts" arent really very factual. I think that well built guitars have an appeal that has very little to do with tone. Heck my $180 dollar 70s aria Epiphone POC sounds differant, but as nice in its own way, as my $3000 dollar custom. They dont compare quality wise, but they are both really fun to play When you say really bad neck joint. Do you mean the joint is not solid(loose neck?). If you have a neck joint that is not solid it will effect sustain(simply dampens the strings). If the neck is solid it will perform. As far as tone related "facts". Well it is not all BS. However the effects are much less noteworthy than if we were talking about an acoustic. Neck wood is noticable because it effects string vibration much more, but then again neck construction plays a big role in this also. All that said. The difference between fresh strings and dirty tired string is so much more noticable. I guess you could dismiss the effects of wood on tone when you compair it to other factors. Then again it does effect the sound of the instrument, so it shouldn't be ignored. Peace,Rich Yes I do agree that most differances effect tone and sustain. its kjust soooo subjective as to what is better, and how much so. The neck joint on my Strat has about 1/16 inch of a gap at the sides of the pocket. I could lossen the screws and pull the neck over so that the strings are claean of the fret board. Still, it is bolted down tight and this so called major flaw to the tone of the instrument.....really isnt one. It sound great and sustains for day. For me, this blows another "fact". I dont think that this does not effect the instrument. It just isnt atomaticaly bad. Of course, I would much prefer it to have a great neck joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Yes I do agree that most differances effect tone and sustain. its kjust soooo subjective as to what is better, and how much so. The neck joint on my Strat has about 1/16 inch of a gap at the sides of the pocket. I could lossen the screws and pull the neck over so that the strings are claean of the fret board. Still, it is bolted down tight and this so called major flaw to the tone of the instrument.....really isnt one. It sound great and sustains for day. For me, this blows another "fact". I dont think that this does not effect the instrument. It just isnt atomaticaly bad. My understanding of the 'secret' behind the bolt on neck joint is not that the neck joint is tight, but that the screws pull the heel of the neck so tightly against the body. Which makes tons of sense, of course, in terms of transferring vibrations. The fact that the Fender joint is inherently slightly loose probably actually facilitates making that surface-to-surface contact. There's a tradeoff, of course--you get that bulky heel for one thing. But it's pretty clear that Leo Fender designed the joint for ease of manufacture first of all --much easier to mass produce a bolt-on than a setneck. Fender just got lucky --his designs worked out pretty well, guitarists liked what he was making, his guitars were used on a number of early recordings, they turned out to have a particular 'sound' all of their own, and things just snowballed from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I have a Strat with a really bad neck joint (american ) And I have a strat with a perfect joint. I really dont hear any major differance that I could atribute to the joint. The sustain is about the same. Go figure. Seems to me that almost all of the tone related "facts" arent really very factual. I think that well built guitars have an appeal that has very little to do with tone. Heck my $180 dollar 70s aria Epiphone POC sounds differant, but as nice in its own way, as my $3000 dollar custom. They dont compare quality wise, but they are both really fun to play When you say really bad neck joint. Do you mean the joint is not solid(loose neck?). If you have a neck joint that is not solid it will effect sustain(simply dampens the strings). If the neck is solid it will perform. As far as tone related "facts". Well it is not all BS. However the effects are much less noteworthy than if we were talking about an acoustic. Neck wood is noticable because it effects string vibration much more, but then again neck construction plays a big role in this also. All that said. The difference between fresh strings and dirty tired string is so much more noticable. I guess you could dismiss the effects of wood on tone when you compair it to other factors. Then again it does effect the sound of the instrument, so it shouldn't be ignored. Peace,Rich Yes I do agree that most differances effect tone and sustain. its kjust soooo subjective as to what is better, and how much so. The neck joint on my Strat has about 1/16 inch of a gap at the sides of the pocket. I could lossen the screws and pull the neck over so that the strings are claean of the fret board. Still, it is bolted down tight and this so called major flaw to the tone of the instrument.....really isnt one. It sound great and sustains for day. For me, this blows another "fact". I dont think that this does not effect the instrument. It just isnt atomaticaly bad. Of course, I would much prefer it to have a great neck joint. If the neck is seating well that is the biggest part of a good joint. The fact that the neck has slop on the sides will not effect the transfer of energy(or create a heavy loss of energy) as much as make it tuff to keep the neck straight(which is workable but not good). So I don't think this blows away any "fact" about construction, but you do show that you can align your neck and keep it working even with slop(an oversized route can be worked with if the neck seats well and scews are tight enough to prevent movement). I see your point. Wood and joint types (as well as other factors in a guitars design) significance in overall sound may be overblown during discussions. Let your experience be your guide, and way out what others opinions are against that experience to develop your own opinion(keeping an open mind to new possibilities). The one thing I know for sure is. As soon as I think I have everything figured out. Something new comes along that I did not know and changes what I thought to be true( or a "fact"). Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjensen Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is interesting how this got back on topic. So if we agree that a solid conection from the neck to the body is made, there will be little differance. Arguably none. The differance between bolt on, set neck, and bolt through, is likely next to nothing. However, I dont think that is a reason not to build it Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 It is interesting how this got back on topic. So if we agree that a solid conection from the neck to the body is made, there will be little differance. Arguably none. The differance between bolt on, set neck, and bolt through, is likely next to nothing. Yup, That sounds pretty good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Hmmm...came across this this evening: The next thing is the neck joint; I came to believe from a lot of experience, that bolt on necks just sound better than set necks. For many years there was an almost snobbish series of claims made for set-neck guitars and against guitars with bolt on necks. It was claimed that glued in necks gave better sustain. The truth is, that a bolt on neck when it's done right absolutely sounds better than either a standard set neck, or a neck through. The reason is glue; The glue in a neck joint actually acts as a barrier to the transmission of vibrations. It's like a little wall keeping the wood fibers from communicating. A wood fiber itself when looked at under a microscope, looks just like bamboo; It's a hollow tube, with little membranes along it's length which divide it. The longer a fiber is, the lower it's resonate frequency is. But if you put something like glue on the ends of those fibers and between them, it's acting as a damper. A good bolt on neck on the other hand, is two pieces of wood fit tightly together under pressure in direct communication. I have yet to play a guitar with a glued in neck which had as full a sound as a good bolt on neck. And of course bolt on necks are a whole lot more practical and durable. This guy (James Byrd) has lots more to say here... Meanwhile, I've been digging around on the Byrd guitars site, and damn, I think he might have won me over. If only because of this photo: My primary reason for preferring a set neck is that I just don't like the way the strat/tele type bolt-on heels feel. But I can definitely see myself living happily with this type of heel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Sounds like a combo between a firmly held belief and marketing speak to me, but whatever. Y'know all those laminated neck-throughs? Tons of glue, relatively speaking, and I don't hear many people complaining they sound ass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 Sounds like a combo between a firmly held belief and marketing speak to me, but whatever. Y'know all those laminated neck-throughs? Tons of glue, relatively speaking, and I don't hear many people complaining they sound ass... Ha ha, no kidding. I just had a listen to Byrd's music --his guitar is so over-processed, I don't think it really matters what guitar he's using. This is something that often confuses me about all these 'tonal' issues. Seems to me the most important things to consider are: comfort/playability and your choice of amp. Here's another quote: Every time I hear a luthier try to make a case for a bolt-on design being somehow sonically ‘superior’ to a set-neck, I just want to shake him. The notion that glue somehow forms a vibrational barrier is absurd. Think about the molecular process of the glue joint for a moment. Wood glue causes an actual physical transformation of the joint, it enters into the fibers of the wood and essentially restructures them, linking and meshing the fibers together. This effect is even more pronounced when using the same species of wood. That is why a glue joint becomes stronger than the wood itself. The glue actually becomes a conduit for the vibrations, transferring MORE of the string vibration, not less. Similar to the membrane of a speaker. This effect is increased even more with a properly made set-neck joint, which requires extremely tight tolerances. Everything needs to fit perfectly. And that is not true of a bolt-on neck. Let’s face it, the choice of a bolt-on neck joint is an economic one, not tonal. It costs less to make a bolt-on guitar, they’re much easier to manufacture. It’s essentially the difference between handcrafted furniture and the crap they sell at Ikea. On the other hand, like I said, I like the ergonomics of his neck joint (although I realize he didn't invent this idea either). I want to make a new body for my telecaster neck, this will be a nice option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pullshocks Posted April 8, 2006 Report Share Posted April 8, 2006 Hi, I am new to this forum. I have built a few guitars, got diverted off into tube amp construction for a while, and I am really psyched to get back to doing some guitar work This topic is near and dear to me. I've tried a couple of ways to get a smooth heel on a removable neck. The most recent one uses a joint that is similar to what you show in the drawing, but with a little more complexity. The joint is a lot of extra work, but I am really happy with it structurally and I certainly have no complaints about the tone or sustain. It does have some issues related to the appearance that would also apply to the joint you are considering. If you use a surface finish, you are going to need to have a slight gap for the finish to go around the corner and into the joint. It wouldn't have to be all the way through, maybe 1/8th inch. But if you don't do that, the finish will be very susceptible to chipping or peeling. Even if you use an oil finish, your probably would need to put a slight bevel or round on the edges of the joint. Getting the gap nice and even, while keeping it very narrow....that's something I haven't solved yet Even if you manage to keep the gaps nice and narrow and even, it is going to look a little clunky, having the 2 gaps running down the back of the guitar Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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