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No Tone Control, 3 "sc" Wiring


GregP
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I have a project with a humbucker (4-conductor) and single coil. In the interest of making things easy for myself, I'm just using a strat-style switch (5-position, 2-pole) even though each of the split coils in the humbucker will yield almost identical tones. Meh, it's what was on-hand. :D

Now, the guitar has no tone knobs. Just the switch, the volume, and the output jack. I mosey over to good ol' Guitarelectronics and check out their standard strat diagram:

http://guitarelectronics.com/product/WDUSSS5L1201

And I'm having a gander. Only one of the poles has pickups attached. The other pole runs to the tone controls. So now I'm confused about what to do with the second pole. Is it even needed? If I send lug 0 to the vol knob, 1 to bridge, 2 to middle, and 3 to neck (or the other way around-- easily checked before I begin soldering), all from pole 1, do I even need pole 2 at all? Is it still a vital part of the circuit? As far as I can tell, with just 1 pole and no tone, I'm still completing a circuit. Do I even need to solder my two lug 0's together?

If I DO need additional soldering, what does it need to be?

Thanks for any pointers. I had a search around, but nobody seems to be hosting any diagrams for 3 SC + 1 Vol diagrams.

Greg

PS, even though it's not a superswitch, with the Tone controls out of the equation, can the 2nd pole be used for some sort of trickery to make one of my redundant ("neck" and "middle" sounding almost identical) tones something more interesting?

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Thanks Robert,

I'll give'er a given'er standard Strat style for now, and later I'll see if I can find a use for the other lugs. :D

Greg

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One Idea I had was just to put an appropriate diode, capacitor, resistor, or whatever (I dunno what they are in a Varitone) in-line with either the "neck" or the "middle" position on the 2nd pole. Then the tone would be at least "different".

Greg

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*bump*

My thinking was "off". I wanted the humbucker to operate in series, but of course with a Strat style switching system, they operate in parallel.

I've spent many hours trying this, so please don't hate me for asking, anybody, but:

Can anyone help me with a wiring diagram?

---

Components:

"neck" rail style humbucker, Seymour Duncan colours used (red+green, white+black, bare)

"bridge" generic imitation Telecaster style, red+white wires, don't worry about polarity, I can reverse if needed

5-way strat-style switch (2 poles with 4 lugs each)

volume knob

All I REALLY need it to do is:

- "bridge" by itself

- "bridge + either coil of "neck" for hum-cancelling

- "neck" as in-series, in-phase humbucker (normal humbucker)

The other 2 slots can be whatever, even if they sound bad (like out-of-phase nasal weakness)

---

I know you guys have better things to do than work this stuff out, but every time I use that humbucker (which I currently have "working" at least! I tried!) I'm going to wish it was series.

Thanks in advance for anyone who has pity!

Greg

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:D Think I've worked out something that's suitable! :D can't believe I didn't get it right first time!

diagram8yd.jpg

should give:

single coil

single coil + 1 coil of humbucker in parallel (if this isn't hum canceling you need to switch the grounded wire and the 'blue' wire from the humbucker over)

1 coil of the humbucker

1 coil of the humbucker (again!)

full series humbucker

just did the wires in random colours so it was easy to see what went where but I can do it in any colour code you want if that'd be more helpful B)

:D hope that's of help!

Robert

Edited by Robert_the_damned
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Robert,

I'm reading this from work, so I can't put it into practice yet, but if it works, I'm going to be a very happy man. Thanks a lot!

Greg

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Robert,

The only problem I have is not breaking off these stupid teeny tiny little pieces of wire as I try to fit the switch back into the too-tight cavity. :D

Qveztion, though:

Since we're now using both poles of the switch, should the two "always on" lugs (also labelled as "0" on many diagrams) not be wired together?

Greg

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I have to confess, I'm still trying to sort this out, with the colours on my humbucker. I wanted to sort it out on my own rather than expect my hand to be held, but as it turns out, I keep giving myself headaches. :D

My humbucker is a Quad rails (Kramer? Mitey Mite?), but as far as I can tell, it uses the same colours as Seymour Duncan and Gotoh. That being the case, using Robert's diagram:

"north" coil of HB:

- his black = ground = my green

- his green = hot = my red

"south" coil of HB:

- his green (again) = tied to other humbucker = my white

- his blue = direct to switch = my black

----

Following that logic, on my pickup, the white and red are tied together to facilitate the series connection, my green goes to ground, and my black also goes to the switch (to the left with the 2 lugs).

----

Does that sound about right? Damn this perfectionism. I finally "gave up" trying to work it out last night and wired it all up before discovering that I had no series connection, plus also putting my SC out of phase. :D If I'm "going in" again, I hope to do it right first time. B)

Greg

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The "left" pole makes sense to me. Going from top to bottom:

0 (common)

1 (bridge)

2 (middle)

3 (neck)

but using the same numbers, my personal switch's "right" pole is:

1

2

3

0

Robert (or anyone else good at this stuff), how do the lugs in your diagram correspond? I try to work out the logic for myself, but it's not panning out. where the 2 coils of the humbucker "join", I don't know how to trace the path.

So, in short, I need to know where to connect (on the right pole) the ground and the other wire.

Just to show I've "tried", here's what I'm THINKING happens:

On the right lug, the 'bucker is wired to the middle position and the ground is the 'common' lug. When neck is chosen on the switch, the signal path is FORCED into going through both coils because that's the only path it can take to ground/"return". When middle position is chosen, the 'series' path gets broken because the path to ground has less resistance through Robert's "green" wire because it gets sent to ground via the pole's common lug.

Sure would like to know if I've at least got the right lugs (middle for wire, common for ground), even if my reasoning is flawed. :D

Greg

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Bump again. :D

I went ahead and did it with the assumption made above. This thing sure is getting fiddly to work with-- my wires somehow got shorter and shorter, and I don't recall very often cutting them down for a "clean start". :D

I'm not sure what to do with the results it yielded. :D

pos 1 (bridge) = nice full single-coil tone

pos 2 = not hum-cancelling, but reasonable volume

pos 3 + 4 = not hum-cancelling, and low volume

pos 5 = only fully hum-cancelling position, with good volume

Now, it needs to be said that the results for 3+4 aren't totally unexpected. If I'm not mistaken, they are both single coils from the neck 'bucker. I measured the impedance of the individual coils, and at ~3.5 Ohms, I doubt they're very high output. The bridge SC was a spanky 8!

So, from those results, I don't know what to do... if I screw with either of the coils (reversing hot and ground) of the humbucker, wouldn't that then mean that the "opposite" switch setting would then not be hum cancelling? Or in other words, if position 5 is hum cancelling, won't switching the wires as per Robert's directions then render position 5 to be NOT hum-cancelling?

As you can see, I'm working a lot of this out on my own, which is rewarding. But I've also spent about 12 hours in total on this, as I'm not a very fast solderer and feel very sharply the non-presence of a third limb. B)

Greg

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you've got your humbucker wired fine as far as I can tell.

and yes I've put the poles on the right hand side of the strat switch the opposite way up to those on the left as I thought this is how strat switches worked. :D if I've got that wrong then you'll have to swap the connections over!

because the humbucker coils and the single coil arn't of similar output possition 2 might not be fully hum canceling. however if its noisyer or as noisy as the single coil on its own you'll need to swap the green and black (as per on your pickup not my diagram). that should work fine then :D it wont stop position 5 from being hum canceling as you've reversed the phase of both the humbucker coils, and it'll also make position 2 humbucking because the coil that will be selected from the humbucker will now be the oposite polarity and phase to the single coil.

sorry its taken me so long to reply Greg!

Edited by Robert_the_damned
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Robert,

I'll give that a try. Luckily when you say "opposite" it ended up not mattering in the end, because you flip the common, which IS correct, and then of the remaining 3 lugs, the middle is still the middle. :D

Cheers,

Greg

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I dunno. It's hard to tell because my apartment is absolutely, NOTORIOUSLY prone to EMI hum in the first place, so it's hard to guage how much of this is normal.

After switching those wires, everything's definitely "in phase" with each other, because there are no positions with really weird frequency drop-out. But the only position that's really cancelling the hum right now is with the switch all the way toward the "neck", ie, the humbucker in series.

The in-between position that's just one coil of the humbucker is noise-tastic. I wonder if it's just a really noisy or EMI-prone pickup to begin with.

I *believe* that the SC + one coil of HB position is now a touch quieter than last night when I tried, but it's pretty noisy, too. Which is too bad, because it's the "best-sounding" of the positions. The SC by itself sounds good, and the HB by itself sounds good.

After all these hours and all this mucking around, I am realizing that I probably should've replaced my broken 3-way with another 3-way instead of the 5-way. :D

I certainly appreciate all the help, Robert-- above and beyond the call of duty, really. Muchas gracias for this "best-case" scenario I've finally arrived at. :D

Greg

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Took it to my local music store where I know some of the guys a bit, and they seemed well impressed. :D Photos coming up as soon as I've buffed out the wax finish. Though, the daylight is fading so I might wait until tomorrow to get proper light on the photo. :D

In any event, just for closure I did a quick mod of Robert's original diagram using my own colours, to show what I ended up at. Part of the reason the coils needed to be swapped came down to the fact that the humbucker is meant to be a bridge humbucker, if I'm not mistaken.

LapWiring.jpg

Thanks again, Robert and Joe!

Greg

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B) cool. I'm intrested to see this guitar now!

:D think I'm going to have to start doing better diagrams like how you've done that one Greg!

Robert

It was just your diagram with thicker lines and some labels. :D

Look no further than the following thread to see the results:

http://projectguitar.ibforums.com/index.ph...topic=23390&hl=

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