ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I AM PUTTING A VENEER MAPLE QUILT TOP ON A OLD HAMER BODY OF MINE. I WAS HOPING SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A HEADS UP. I KNOW ABOUT STAINING IT DARK THEN SANDING BACK THEN RESTAINING. I WAS THINKING ABOUT USING WATER BASE STAIN. WILL I GET THE SAME RESULTS IF I USED LAQUER BASE STAIN? WILL IT GET DEEP INTO THE GRAIN LIKE THE WATER BASE STAIN? I WANT THE FINISH COLOR OF THE QUILT TO BE AMBER. I REALLY WANT THE GRAIN TO POP SO I GET A NICE 3D AFFECT. SHOULD I MIX THE AMBER STAIN STRONG FOR MY FIRST COAT OR SHOULD I USE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK TO MAKE THE GRAIN POP? I'M WORRIED THAT THE DARKER STAIN WOULD HAVE ME SANDING HEAVY TO BRING IT DOWN AND IT IS A THIN VENEER. I'M GOING TO DO THIS GUITAR IN A BURST WITH A VERY NARROW DARK TRANSITION LINE ON THE TOP. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD MAHOGANY BODY AND THE EDGES ARE NOT SHARP AND THERE IS NO BINDING. IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING LET ME KNOW. I WOULD BE THANKFUL FOR ANY HELP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I AM PUTTING A VENEER MAPLE QUILT TOP ON A OLD HAMER BODY OF MINE. I WAS HOPING SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A HEADS UP. I KNOW ABOUT STAINING IT DARK THEN SANDING BACK THEN RESTAINING. I WAS THINKING ABOUT USING WATER BASE STAIN. WILL I GET THE SAME RESULTS IF I USED LAQUER BASE STAIN? WILL IT GET DEEP INTO THE GRAIN LIKE THE WATER BASE STAIN? I WANT THE FINISH COLOR OF THE QUILT TO BE AMBER. I REALLY WANT THE GRAIN TO POP SO I GET A NICE 3D AFFECT. SHOULD I MIX THE AMBER STAIN STRONG FOR MY FIRST COAT OR SHOULD I USE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK TO MAKE THE GRAIN POP? I'M WORRIED THAT THE DARKER STAIN WOULD HAVE ME SANDING HEAVY TO BRING IT DOWN AND IT IS A THIN VENEER. I'M GOING TO DO THIS GUITAR IN A BURST WITH A VERY NARROW DARK TRANSITION LINE ON THE TOP. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD MAHOGANY BODY AND THE EDGES ARE NOT SHARP AND THERE IS NO BINDING. IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING LET ME KNOW. I WOULD BE THANKFUL FOR ANY HELP. The first thing you missed was turning off the caps lock. Don't do it again. As for the stain, alcohol-soluble stains will work as well, use a brown rather than a black as your dark base, and be very careful when sanding back, to make sure you don't sand through the veneer. If you're worried about spoiling the veneer, just use a stronger amber coat for the first dye, sand back a little and go from there. Just do what you feel comfortable with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oz tradie Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 Also as a footnote to supernova, I assume you will have leftover veneer. Use that as a test piece first , so you know exactly how it will look. It's also good practice for the real deal . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 4, 2006 Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 The first question is do you know how to veneer? If not, get a little practice veneering first before you worry about how to dye it. When you refer to lacquer based stain, I presume you're referring to alcohol based dye, which, if so, will work as well as waterbased, but both have dangers applying to veneer, like if you put too much on and you didn't do a good job on the veneer, it will lift and bubble on you, and just be a general pain in the arse. If you've never veneered before and you don't feel like doing some practice runs first, I would recommend a Maple laminate top, much easier to work with and easier to get happy results right off the bat. My personal experience with quilted maple veneer is that nothing you can do will make the figure become as 3D like using the real wood (laminate top) will do. You can have a laminate top sanded down to 1/8", which is getting somewhere close to veneer range if that helps you, or you canhave your body sanded down 1/8", so your 1/8" laminate will return you to your original thickness so everything 'works' again action-wise and neck wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I AM PUTTING A VENEER MAPLE QUILT TOP ON A OLD HAMER BODY OF MINE. I WAS HOPING SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A HEADS UP. I KNOW ABOUT STAINING IT DARK THEN SANDING BACK THEN RESTAINING. I WAS THINKING ABOUT USING WATER BASE STAIN. WILL I GET THE SAME RESULTS IF I USED LAQUER BASE STAIN? WILL IT GET DEEP INTO THE GRAIN LIKE THE WATER BASE STAIN? I WANT THE FINISH COLOR OF THE QUILT TO BE AMBER. I REALLY WANT THE GRAIN TO POP SO I GET A NICE 3D AFFECT. SHOULD I MIX THE AMBER STAIN STRONG FOR MY FIRST COAT OR SHOULD I USE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK TO MAKE THE GRAIN POP? I'M WORRIED THAT THE DARKER STAIN WOULD HAVE ME SANDING HEAVY TO BRING IT DOWN AND IT IS A THIN VENEER. I'M GOING TO DO THIS GUITAR IN A BURST WITH A VERY NARROW DARK TRANSITION LINE ON THE TOP. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD MAHOGANY BODY AND THE EDGES ARE NOT SHARP AND THERE IS NO BINDING. IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING LET ME KNOW. I WOULD BE THANKFUL FOR ANY HELP. The caps lock is off. I will use the dark brown then sand back light and go over it with amber. Thanks for the info.....Mike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I AM PUTTING A VENEER MAPLE QUILT TOP ON A OLD HAMER BODY OF MINE. I WAS HOPING SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A HEADS UP. I KNOW ABOUT STAINING IT DARK THEN SANDING BACK THEN RESTAINING. I WAS THINKING ABOUT USING WATER BASE STAIN. WILL I GET THE SAME RESULTS IF I USED LAQUER BASE STAIN? WILL IT GET DEEP INTO THE GRAIN LIKE THE WATER BASE STAIN? I WANT THE FINISH COLOR OF THE QUILT TO BE AMBER. I REALLY WANT THE GRAIN TO POP SO I GET A NICE 3D AFFECT. SHOULD I MIX THE AMBER STAIN STRONG FOR MY FIRST COAT OR SHOULD I USE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK TO MAKE THE GRAIN POP? I'M WORRIED THAT THE DARKER STAIN WOULD HAVE ME SANDING HEAVY TO BRING IT DOWN AND IT IS A THIN VENEER. I'M GOING TO DO THIS GUITAR IN A BURST WITH A VERY NARROW DARK TRANSITION LINE ON THE TOP. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD MAHOGANY BODY AND THE EDGES ARE NOT SHARP AND THERE IS NO BINDING. IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING LET ME KNOW. I WOULD BE THANKFUL FOR ANY HELP. The first thing you missed was turning off the caps lock. Don't do it again. As for the stain, alcohol-soluble stains will work as well, use a brown rather than a black as your dark base, and be very careful when sanding back, to make sure you don't sand through the veneer. If you're worried about spoiling the veneer, just use a stronger amber coat for the first dye, sand back a little and go from there. Just do what you feel comfortable with. Yes I have plenty of veneer left over to practice with. The reason for my original question was to help me make a choice, water based or alcohol based stain. Thanks for the info...Mike.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 I AM PUTTING A VENEER MAPLE QUILT TOP ON A OLD HAMER BODY OF MINE. I WAS HOPING SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME A HEADS UP. I KNOW ABOUT STAINING IT DARK THEN SANDING BACK THEN RESTAINING. I WAS THINKING ABOUT USING WATER BASE STAIN. WILL I GET THE SAME RESULTS IF I USED LAQUER BASE STAIN? WILL IT GET DEEP INTO THE GRAIN LIKE THE WATER BASE STAIN? I WANT THE FINISH COLOR OF THE QUILT TO BE AMBER. I REALLY WANT THE GRAIN TO POP SO I GET A NICE 3D AFFECT. SHOULD I MIX THE AMBER STAIN STRONG FOR MY FIRST COAT OR SHOULD I USE A DARK BROWN OR BLACK TO MAKE THE GRAIN POP? I'M WORRIED THAT THE DARKER STAIN WOULD HAVE ME SANDING HEAVY TO BRING IT DOWN AND IT IS A THIN VENEER. I'M GOING TO DO THIS GUITAR IN A BURST WITH A VERY NARROW DARK TRANSITION LINE ON THE TOP. I'M DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS AN OLD MAHOGANY BODY AND THE EDGES ARE NOT SHARP AND THERE IS NO BINDING. IF I'M MISSING SOMETHING LET ME KNOW. I WOULD BE THANKFUL FOR ANY HELP. The first thing you missed was turning off the caps lock. Don't do it again. As for the stain, alcohol-soluble stains will work as well, use a brown rather than a black as your dark base, and be very careful when sanding back, to make sure you don't sand through the veneer. If you're worried about spoiling the veneer, just use a stronger amber coat for the first dye, sand back a little and go from there. Just do what you feel comfortable with. Sorry people I clicked on the wrong reply box. Lets try this again. The caps lock is off. I will use the dark brown dye to do the base coat. Thanks for the info...Mike... Also as a footnote to supernova, I assume you will have leftover veneer. Use that as a test piece first , so you know exactly how it will look. It's also good practice for the real deal . Sorry people I clicked on the wrong reply box. Lets try this again. Yes I have plenty of veneer to practice with. My original question was to help me make a choice, water based or alcohol based dye. Thanks for the info...Mike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2006 The first question is do you know how to veneer? If not, get a little practice veneering first before you worry about how to dye it. When you refer to lacquer based stain, I presume you're referring to alcohol based dye, which, if so, will work as well as waterbased, but both have dangers applying to veneer, like if you put too much on and you didn't do a good job on the veneer, it will lift and bubble on you, and just be a general pain in the arse. If you've never veneered before and you don't feel like doing some practice runs first, I would recommend a Maple laminate top, much easier to work with and easier to get happy results right off the bat. My personal experience with quilted maple veneer is that nothing you can do will make the figure become as 3D like using the real wood (laminate top) will do. You can have a laminate top sanded down to 1/8", which is getting somewhere close to veneer range if that helps you, or you canhave your body sanded down 1/8", so your 1/8" laminate will return you to your original thickness so everything 'works' again action-wise and neck wise. I've done one veneer project in the past. A few months ago I put a aprox. 1/40" flamed maple veneer top on a strat style body for a friend of mine. I followed instructions that I got online. The veneer job turned out very nice. My friend has not applied any dye or finish to it yet ( he can't make up his mind how he wants it to look ) so I don't know if it wil try to lift or bubble. ( I hope not or I might be pulling out what little hair I have left ). I am confident that I can do a good job applying the veneer. You would be correct to presume I'm referring to alcohol based dye. Sorry bad choice of words on my part. ( Lacquer = Alcohol Stain = Dye) I've refinished one body in the past but that was a soild color. It turned out very nice. I used ReRanch products. This will be my first attempt at dyes and my first attempt at a burst. I've had this Hamer guitar for years. It's not a high end guitar but it is not a cheap one either. It's one of the best playing and sounding guitars that I've ever owned. It's all USA made. I just wanted to give the old girl a face lift. She has been well used but not abused( Road Rash Happens ). The laminate top is a option if I have alot of trouble with the veneer, but I'm not sure if the cost will be justifiable. Thanks for the info....Mike.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 What I do when applying dye to a veneer is have the hair dryer handy. As soon as I'm done wiping the dye in, I start running the hair dryer over the veneer, back and forth very quickly, to dry up the moisture (either water or alcohol, as the case may be) in the dye as fast as possible, to avoid bubbling. Another thing I do is after it's dry, I tap the entire top with my fingertip, sounding out for any areas that did not adhere properly. A loose area will have a sort of hollow sound to it, like a little miniature drum head. Also, be SURE to sand the entire thing dead flat before applying any dye. If there are any high spots in the veneer and you apply dye, when you sand back, these areas will become pure white bubbles or ripples and will stand out like a sore thumb. I also try to get the dye wiped on as fast as possible. The longer you have any sort of moisture in contact with the veneer, you're increasing the chances of a lift or bubble, so keep the wiping time down, and dry it quickly with a hair dryer...keep the whole thing to a very few short minutes. But basically, you can use either alcohol or water based anilyne dyes, either will do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROCKNROLLBRO Posted June 5, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 What I do when applying dye to a veneer is have the hair dryer handy. As soon as I'm done wiping the dye in, I start running the hair dryer over the veneer, back and forth very quickly, to dry up the moisture (either water or alcohol, as the case may be) in the dye as fast as possible, to avoid bubbling. Another thing I do is after it's dry, I tap the entire top with my fingertip, sounding out for any areas that did not adhere properly. A loose area will have a sort of hollow sound to it, like a little miniature drum head. Also, be SURE to sand the entire thing dead flat before applying any dye. If there are any high spots in the veneer and you apply dye, when you sand back, these areas will become pure white bubbles or ripples and will stand out like a sore thumb. I also try to get the dye wiped on as fast as possible. The longer you have any sort of moisture in contact with the veneer, you're increasing the chances of a lift or bubble, so keep the wiping time down, and dry it quickly with a hair dryer...keep the whole thing to a very few short minutes. But basically, you can use either alcohol or water based anilyne dyes, either will do the job. Thanks for the tips. I will keep the hair dryer handy. Just one more question. Can I use alcohol dye for the sides, back and transtion areas then use water dye on the veneer top? What I mean is if I start with alcohol do I have to do all the dye in alcohol? I only ask because a buddy of mine says he has some brown alcohol dye and some honey colored water dye lying around in his garage. If I can use them I won't buy any. I know dye is not very expensive but as little as I need why buy it if I don't have to. Thanks again.....Mike.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted June 5, 2006 Report Share Posted June 5, 2006 Yes you can do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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