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Could I Make My Own Bigsby Vibrato?


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Needle bearings, good call. I'm retarded. That said, here's a good source: http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/CTGY/NEEDEL_ROLLER.

Oh, and about the location of the spring. Think of it this way. Since the bar will not be parallel to the body when at rest, then the farther away from the pivot you put the spring, the less compressed it will be. The less compressed it is, the less force it's exerting on the bar. That said, you want the spring to be fairly compressed when at rest(probably near 50-60% of it's original length, to avoid it popping out when pulling up). You'll only have about an inch to play with as for location, so I think the differences in that instance will be more negligable. But yes, normally farther away is better, but it's a whole new ball game when spring lengths and rates come into the picture.

peace,

russ

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By the way, I found that Rancid songs video mentioned in an earlier post on YouTube, and I didn't see nor hear any Bigsby action …

Me too..

But I'll try and get my hands on a camera (my drummers got one, and he owes me) and take some photos this week - any in particular parts you're looking for photos of? I'll try and do a full takeapart. But yeah, it's dependent on me getting a camera and having an extra set of strings in my house. Is there a deadline for this?

That would be great if you're sure you dont mind. I'd be especially interested in the major moving parts really.

As for a 'deadline'; there isnt one really. Its 2 and a bit weeks until my exams are over, and before I worry about this bigsby I'll have the body and neck to worry about, so no hurry.

tirapop- Needle bearings then.. They dont look expensive so I'll see if I can get hold of them. I understand the issues you describe with ball bearings

The loads you apply on those pivot supports are going to be different. When you press down on the trem arm, it's pushing down on the spring and trying to pry that nearest pivot off the guitar. The other pivot is going to be reacting string tension through the tube, pulling it forward.

Bigsby's design, where both pivots are part of the same casting, reduces relative motion between the two pivots and it react the trem arm load over more fastener.

That makes sense... I might try to connect the 2 sides of it together somehow. Or maybe I could go crazy and combine it with the bridge and make a big ornate thing like this bigsby.(but with the bridge attatched and no pickup coverplate thing)...that could look pretty cool actually!

Oh, and about the location of the spring. Think of it this way. Since the bar will not be parallel to the body when at rest, then the farther away from the pivot you put the spring, the less compressed it will be. The less compressed it is, the less force it's exerting on the bar. That said, you want the spring to be fairly compressed when at rest(probably near 50-60% of it's original length, to avoid it popping out when pulling up). You'll only have about an inch to play with as for location, so I think the differences in that instance will be more negligable. But yes, normally farther away is better, but it's a whole new ball game when spring lengths and rates come into the picture.

Hmm.. B)

I agree that the further from the pivot it is, the less compreseed it will be, since it will only compress up to the point where its exerting the exact amount of force to counter the force exerted on it due to the string pull, which will be less the further it is from the pivot.

I'm not sure that the fact that the bar is non-parralel is the issue really... if you imagine the spring was a rigid block, then if you move it away from the pivot, the bar will depress until it touches it.

So (this is hard to describe :D ) what I mean is that if the spring is in position A near the pivot, and there is a position B (on the bar) further from the pivot, the distance between B and the guitar top will not be the same as if the spring were actually mounted at B...

You may be right, but if you take the extreme and put the spring on the pivot and it would have no effect whatsoever.

I'm sure this will be settled when I start experimenting with it :D

In fact experimenting may be a lot easier than worrying about it theoretically since theres so may variables to account for.

I rarely use vibratos to pull up, usually just to dive, so I dont really mind sacrificing someof the upward motion I may lose by moving the spring away from the pivot. It might even allow more downward travel...

Thats one hell of a post.. its taken me nearly 20 mins to write it ! :D

Thanks everyone!

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I understand what you're saying, but by putting the spring further away and having the bar come down to meet it, you're losing your ability to lower the pitch, since you can't push the bar through the body. Just buy some springs for heaven's sake. I'm guessing it's going to have to be a pretty serious spring though.

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I'm guessing it's going to have to be a pretty serious spring though.

I found a site that sells the same springs they use on real bigsby's so theres no problem there.

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On bicycle headsets, they call that index steering. When you turn the handlebars, you can feel little detents in the steering, when the balls drop into the next worn spot in the races. High end bicycle head sets use ball bearings at the top, and tapered roller bearings at the bottom, to avoid that. In highly loaded, small excursion joints, they make special precessing bearings that move freely in one direction and then skate a little in the other direction, to distribute the work over more balls/rollers, and work different parts of the races. Naturally, precessing bearings are much more expensive.

Only problem with that observation is if you have little indents as you call them your headset was poorly set up in the first place. My headset is one of the strongest (and one of the cheapest) around (its an FSA PIG if you want to check out my claim) I never notice dips in steering acuracy. Also never use bearings in a race, all that does is make you use less bearings, without a race you can get at least 4 more (depending on the size or ball used)

Have you thought about retro fitting a bike hub cone into your system? I just thought of an idea that will use the axel of a front hub in a bigsby-esque system. I will draw somthing up later as im just of to work.

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Marzocchi,

I'm old. I come from the time of 1" threaded steer tubes (before 1.125" unthreaded headset and oversized ball bearings). You didn't have to misadjust a headset to get index steering. I'm sure things have improved.

I think you've got your nomeclature mixed. The "race" is the metal ring that has the surface the bearing rolls on. On a bike they get called "cups" and "cones", depending on their shape. It sounds like you're referring to the bearing cage, that separates the bearings and keeps them from contacting each other.

Old motorcycles used to use ball bearings in their headtubes. It's pretty common to replace them with more durable taper roller bearings (like those used in modern production motorcycles).

From the parts list, at the Bigsby site, they list needle and roller bearings... no balls.

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All the bike terminology is confusing me, but you’re basically talking about using bearings from a bike, right?

Also, I’m going to take loads of photos during the build of the Bigsby thing, and then if it turns out to work well I was thinking I might try to make a sort of tutorial.

Do you reckon that would be of use to anyone?

I'd guess that it will only really be of interest if it works out cheaper than a 'real' bigsby (which it should do), and also if it works similarly well.

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I'd guess that it will only really be of interest if it works out cheaper than a 'real' bigsby (which it should do), and also if it works similarly well.

Well, there's a B5 clone on ebay right now for $33 (although the shipping's $15).

I think as long as you're going this far, you might as well figure out ways to improve on the Bigsby design--it's a cool looking trem, but it's not perfect either.

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Sure it would. Don't even question that...

I'll do it then

Well, there's a B5 clone on ebay right now for $33 (although the shipping's $15).

I think as long as you're going this far, you might as well figure out ways to improve on the Bigsby design--it's a cool looking trem, but it's not perfect either.

Cost wise... as far as I can see its going to just cost me the £4.20 for the spring plus whatever the bearings cost, so maybe ~£10-£15 total (which is what.. about $20 ish

But if you needed to buy the aluminium tube it could be more.

Even if it does approach $33, maybe people could carve a nice ornate handle for it or something or make something that's interesting aesthetically. People make their own knobs and I doubt thats its for economical reasons.

I'll keep track of whatever it costs me.

I would be interested to know if the spring on the bigsby if fully compressed when the bar is lowered as far as possible. If not I reckon that I might be able to get some more pitch variation out of it by moving the spring further from the pivot (or maybe its closer, we'll see about that one russ :D)

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So, what tools do you have access to?

Mainly hand tools/ hand-held power tools.

I dont have any thing large like a bandsaw... so I wont be milling the whole thing from a block of aluminium or anything like that.

(not like a bandsaw would actually be any use for that)

Edited by Ben
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Heres an updated mockup of the guitar design if anyone is interested.

127qk.png

I made it by taking a photo of an acoustic from the taylor guitars site, then adding cutaways on paint.

I quite like it. I'm thinking of trying to combine the bigsby and the bridge into a single unit, and moving the tailpiece closer to the bridge to increase the break angle a little (without one of those bars that the real bigsbys have)

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The critical thing, if your pivots are multi-piece, will be getting the holes aligned. If the holes are mislocated or skewed, the pivot shaft won't fit. I think, at a minimum, you'd need a good sized drill press.

If you're going to use rolling element bearings, think about how they're going to be retained. If they're cassette bearings (a complete assembled unit) they can be press fit into a precise hole. You can use circlips to hold them if you have machined grooves in the housing or on the pivot shaft. Also think about how you're going to make the arm and attach it to the shaft.

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The critical thing, if your pivots are multi-piece, will be getting the holes aligned. If the holes are mislocated or skewed, the pivot shaft won't fit. I think, at a minimum, you'd need a good sized drill press.

If you're going to use rolling element bearings, think about how they're going to be retained. If they're cassette bearings (a complete assembled unit) they can be press fit into a precise hole. You can use circlips to hold them if you have machined grooves in the housing or on the pivot shaft. Also think about how you're going to make the arm and attach it to the shaft.

I'll have to try to find a 'creative soloution' to the lack of a drill press I think...

The only thing I have got sorted is the arm thing. I was thinking it would be prety cool to make a wooden one, and I was going to fix it on by drilling a hole through it (of the same diameter as the aluminium tube), and then using glue and a locater pin to stop it rotating.

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I like creative hacks, clever DIY alternatives, and creative solutions. That said, I think you should find access to the tools you need or abandon your project. If you're going to attempt this with a hand held drill you're probably just going to waste time a lot of time.

For this to work even as well as a cheap Chinese Bigsby knock-off it's going to require more precision than a hand drill. How are you going to cut and shape the metal? Hacksawing gets old very quick. If you're going to use aluminum, the shavings load up files really quickly.

With just hand tools, you could make a working trem with a door hinge... but, what would be the point? Unique, but, cobby looking and doesn't work as well.

Find someone who'll let you use their tools. It will make the project easier and increase its chances of success.

If I were going to homebrew a Bigsby, I'd opt for a lost foam casting. For the critical holes, you could use bolts/tubes as cores, that the metal's cast around. There are lots of resources for making a DIY furnace. You can find lots of stuff on the web, too. Yes, it would be a lot of work.

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Well I have a HUGE summer holiday soon so I have plenty of time to waste :D

I'll think about it, maybe make a couple of 'prototypes' and see what the results are like. If they all fail, then now that I've moved house I actually live close (ish) to my old high school which has metal casting facilities and a pretty well equiped workshop.

Knowing the headmistress of the school and my old design technology teacher though, I'm not convinced they'll be too helpful...

I was going to actually make the main 'body' of the thing from wood.

I was thinking of making something like this (just less crappy looking and with 6 strings and a spring and a better arm :D ):

bigsby0rp.png

Do you think the wood will be strong enough if I keep it pretty thick?

As I said, the diagram is over simplified, the real thing wont look so crappy, just illustrating the idea of combining the bridge with the vibrato tailpiece thing. I've omitted the retainer bar because I want to move the tailpiece closer to the bridge to increase the break angle instead.

For the critical holes, you could use bolts/tubes as cores,

I was thinking of that too.

You mentioned this in an earlier post:

In your pic, the pivot supports are separate. They're going to be screwed into wood and then support the tube and react string and trem loads. The wood isn't super rigid (especially through a screw) and it expands and contracts with heat and humidity. You might end up with more movement on either end of the tube than you'd like.

The loads you apply on those pivot supports are going to be different. When you press down on the trem arm, it's pushing down on the spring and trying to pry that nearest pivot off the guitar. The other pivot is going to be reacting string tension through the tube, pulling it forward.

Bigsby's design, where both pivots are part of the same casting, reduces relative motion between the two pivots and it react the trem arm load over more fastener.

I'm hoping that joining everything together like that will help in that respect. I know you mention heat and humidity affecting the dimensions of wood, but so long as I keep it all nice and 'chunky' do you reckon that will be an issue? And even if theres a chance it could be, would the effect be rapid enough to require anything other than the occasional retune of the guitar?

Thanks B)

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My mind was wandering when I was meant to be revising for my maths exam (which is tomorrow :D ) and I ended up doing another more detailed drawing:

bigsby20ij.jpg

What do you think?

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I had that idea actually! I was considering routing channels in the top- is that what you meant or do you mean building it as a separate unit and recessing it ?

The only reason I prefered the external version is that if it doesnt work its non-permenant.

You're right though, it would definitely solve any break angle issues. Although if the break angle was too steep could it create too much friction?

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hollowhq236ip.jpg

Yet another design idea :D

Thinking of trying a carved top on it too.

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