Jockson Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 I'm making my first guitar and I made a mistake on the template so the body ended up a little shorter than I wanted. Unfortunetaly, I realised that after I cut and routed out the body so I cut the body and glued another piece of wood to make it right. Now, everything is nice and flat and it will be invisible since I was gonna paint it anyway. However, I just heard that gluing endgrain to endgrain is a terribly bad idea and that's exactly the way I did it It's not a big piece (around 4cm at the widest point) and is at guitar's "butt" where it won't be affected by string tension. Here's what it looks like: Any chance of this joint not falling off by itself, lol? I do understand why endgrain to endgrain gluing is weaker but how weak it really is? Any other potential problems with this? Should I throw this guitar into garbage and buy another piece of mahogany? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orgmorg Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 You can get away with it in this case, but you should use some dowels or biscuits to reinforce it. Remember, the strap button is on the butt, there, so there will be some stress. Worst case is the glue joint may show under the paint, either now, or a year from now. If it turns out bad, you can always make another one, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom22 Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 (edited) I would say that glue is plenty for something that small. You have plenty of surface area, as a strat is about 1.5 inches wide. If you are really worried add a few dowells in, and do some sort of a burst (or solid color) to hide it. It should be fine as long as the edges were flat when you glued it. Edited June 21, 2006 by custom22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 21, 2006 Report Share Posted June 21, 2006 Amateur opinion, and not to be considered much until the experts weigh in, but I think the type of wood has to be a factor for endgrain-to-endgrain. Really dense woods like maple might turn out OK, but I really have concerns with the mahogany. I've done non-guitar stuff endgrain-to-endgrain, and it has never held up worth a crap. If it's only 4cm, I'd be tempted to modify the body rather than tack on another piece of wood. Curve it off and have a semi flat-looking butt end... in my mind's eye, it could actually be quite good-looking. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 Here is a little snippet that makes a lot of sense, and offers a suggestion on how to improve a end grain to end grain joint. A little info Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledzendrix1128 Posted June 22, 2006 Report Share Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) once again, another amatuer opinion, but I wouldnt use a titebond type glue. Someone please correct me if im wrong, but my woodshop teacher told me that the best thing to use for endgrain is epoxy. He said that the water in a waterbased glue (like titebond) will get soaked up into that grain. Epoxy is thicker so supposedly it will yeild better results. But once again, someone feel free to chyme in if im wrong. He also recommended sealing the endgrain once (spreading a thin coat on both of the glueing surfaces with your finger), before actually glueing it with the glue you plan on using, and let it get tacky, close to dry, but not completely. Then you can put on more glue and clamp everything up. The tacky glue you put on as the "sealer" will stop alot of the glue from soaking up into the pores of the wood. Edited June 22, 2006 by Ledzendrix1128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joej Posted June 25, 2006 Report Share Posted June 25, 2006 Ditto on what they said -- endgrain to endgrain is the weakest joint. Biscuit joint is, dowel it, or do some kind of spline so that there is long grain to long grain gluing. Else ... the joint will fail. -- joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jockson Posted July 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 So, this is what I ended up doing: I used some fairly long (around 2") screws to reinforce the joint (from the side where the strap button is located) and filled the holes afterwards so that they're invisible. Is this ANOTHER terribly bad idea? Now that it isn't going anywhere (it seems that the screws alone are strong enough to hold it even if there was no glue), what are the chances of the glue joint showing under the paint later? I couldn't use the internet for some time and couldn't read replies earlier otherwise I would have tried with dowels and/or using the tip that fryovanni posted. In the mean time, I bought some more Mahogany and started building a new body. I'm gonna use this one for practicing so if it turns out OK, great. If not, at least I learned something Thanks for replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAI6 Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Well, screws are "OK". As long as they don't EVER come in contact with power tools. Then it could be really dangerous. So, I would never use screws in a situation like that. Dowels or biscuits would be the way to go, if you have to do it. The worst that could happen is that they show up when you route or carve... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkat Posted July 25, 2006 Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 (edited) Any chance of this joint not falling off by itself, lol? I do understand why endgrain to endgrain gluing is weaker but how weak it really is? Any other potential problems with this? Should I throw this guitar into garbage and buy another piece of mahogany? Thanks! Hi Jockson, It's bad. There are a few different types of joints you can use. For example, you could rabbit the ends of both peices and slot them together. The long grain (not that there would be much of it in this case) must be really smooth before glue up. This will make a better joint because of the long grain contact. Someone mentioned dowls, which is a good idea but it's still end grain with no long grain contact. Glue up using epoxy sounds good, since there won't be significant stress. I wouldn't use screws, but that's a personal preference not that it won't work. Regards, Michael Edited July 25, 2006 by mkat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jockson Posted July 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2006 Well, screws are "OK". As long as they don't EVER come in contact with power tools. Then it could be really dangerous. So, I would never use screws in a situation like that. Dowels or biscuits would be the way to go, if you have to do it. The worst that could happen is that they show up when you route or carve... They will not show up later because I already routed and carved everything before using the screws, so no worries there Basically, I glued this piece endgrain to endgrain, routed out all cavities and then after hearing that engrain to endgrain is not a good idea I used screws to reinforce the joint. Is it a problem that I drilled and put in screws AFTER the glue had already dried for a couple of days? Any chance of this joint not falling off by itself, lol? I do understand why endgrain to endgrain gluing is weaker but how weak it really is? Any other potential problems with this? Should I throw this guitar into garbage and buy another piece of mahogany? Thanks! Hi Jockson, It's bad. There are a few different types of joints you can use. For example, you could rabbit the ends of both peices and slot them together. The long grain (not that there would be much of it in this case) must be really smooth before glue up. This will make a better joint because of the long grain contact. Someone mentioned dowls, which is a good idea but it's still end grain with no long grain contact. Glue up using epoxy sounds good, since there won't be significant stress. I wouldn't use screws, but that's a personal preference not that it won't work. Regards, Michael Thanks Michael. Rabbet joint is an excellent idea but after doing all this, it's a little too late for it. I already carved the body and rounded off the edges so if I were to cut this piece again, it just wouldn't be worth messing with it anymore. In future, I will definitely not use screws again in situations like this. Anyone else think screws are not a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Since it's already glued and shaped, screws are probably a reasonable option. Worst case, if the joint fails, you make a new body. What have you got to lose, besides time and finishing supplies? You might want to put a little epoxy on-the-screw/in-the-hole to make sure the screw doesn't back out later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkat Posted July 26, 2006 Report Share Posted July 26, 2006 Thanks Michael. Rabbet joint is an excellent idea but after doing all this, it's a little too late for it. I already carved the body and rounded off the edges so if I were to cut this piece again, it just wouldn't be worth messing with it anymore. In future, I will definitely not use screws again in situations like this. Anyone else think screws are not a good idea? No worries Jockson. Things that go wrong aren't always bad, because you get to think about workarounds. Anyway, the screws should be fine for that body. It's done now, so you can move on to the next body knowing you'll do a better job. Regards, Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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