fyb Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 (edited) I've heard this term quite a bit regarding wood selection...but I have yet to find any real specifics about it. Do you just tap the wood with your finger? What are you listening for? Can you give me some advice/tips about this?? Thanks! Edited August 4, 2006 by fyb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 I've heard this term quite a bit regarding wood selection...but I have yet to find any real specifics about it. Do you just tap the wood with your finger? What are you listening for? Can you give me some advice/tips about this?? Thanks! Read this. First section http://www.mtdbass.com/articles/quest_for_tone.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 That link covers most of the ground. As far as actually doing the tapping. A couple things to know will help you. First- Thicker boards are harder to "tap". If you want to get a better idea of what different woods basically sound like it is easyier with 1/2" and thinner woods. When you tap the wood you will need to hold it with one hand and tap it with the other. I try to tap at about the bottom of the middle third of the board. Now the hand that is holding the board is the tricky one. There are nodes on a board where the vibration of the board will not be dampend by you holding the board. You have to try to find these nodes by tapping and moving your fingers until you get the best ring and sustain from the board. I generally start by holding the board at about the botton of the first quarter of the piece and a couple inches in from the side. Give it a try and you will hear the change in sound. Evaluation of how different boards sound as they ring. Is totally based on comparison to other boards or the same board after you modify it (say as you are bracing the soundboard for an acoustic, or carving an Archtop plate). Next time you are at your local wood dealer. Try tapping around a bit. Keep in mind when you compair the sound of two types of wood you should have two similar boards (dimensionally speaking) or you will not have a good comparison. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fyb Posted August 4, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 That link covers most of the ground. As far as actually doing the tapping. A couple things to know will help you. First- Thicker boards are harder to "tap". If you want to get a better idea of what different woods basically sound like it is easyier with 1/2" and thinner woods. When you tap the wood you will need to hold it with one hand and tap it with the other. I try to tap at about the bottom of the middle third of the board. Now the hand that is holding the board is the tricky one. There are nodes on a board where the vibration of the board will not be dampend by you holding the board. You have to try to find these nodes by tapping and moving your fingers until you get the best ring and sustain from the board. I generally start by holding the board at about the botton of the first quarter of the piece and a couple inches in from the side. Give it a try and you will hear the change in sound. Evaluation of how different boards sound as they ring. Is totally based on comparison to other boards or the same board after you modify it (say as you are bracing the soundboard for an acoustic, or carving an Archtop plate). Next time you are at your local wood dealer. Try tapping around a bit. Keep in mind when you compair the sound of two types of wood you should have two similar boards (dimensionally speaking) or you will not have a good comparison. Peace,Rich Wow . . . that was exactly what I was looking for (and the link was great too!) Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Im sorry Rich but you just gave me a good laugh. I got a mental picture of some guy in a hardware store bangin on a piece of wood. A very fine line between that guy and a crazy person. The whole concept is silly. As soon as you change the wood's shape the information you have gathered by taping has gone out the window. Acoustic soundboards.....maybe i can see it being practical. Otherwise im thinkin crazy person knockin on wood. No offense intended at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 4, 2006 Report Share Posted August 4, 2006 Im sorry Rich but you just gave me a good laugh. I got a mental picture of some guy in a hardware store bangin on a piece of wood. A very fine line between that guy and a crazy person. The whole concept is silly. As soon as you change the wood's shape the information you have gathered by taping has gone out the window. Acoustic soundboards.....maybe i can see it being practical. Otherwise im thinkin crazy person knockin on wood. No offense intended at all. No offense taken, Picturing a guy banging on boards in a hardware store would be pretty silly. As far as the concept. If you have no use for it that is fine. I agree that if you change the shape or thickness the sound changes, and actually nodes move. This is what I said, and is why it is a handy reference tool while carving bracing or carving plates. You notice I mentioned it is only handy evaluation and comparison between similar boards. It can give you an idea as to how different woods sound compaired to each other. If you have ever "tapped" a Redwood Soundboard and then a Walnut Back (similar ruff dimensions) the difference in the attack, sustain and general pitch is very notably different. That's about it. You know it is a funny subject. If you talk to an acoustic builder it is useful (not really questioned, use it all the time). If you talk to an archtop builder it is useful (not really questioned, a good tool while carving). If you talk to a solid body builder it may very well be BS. I think it is because it is not really of much use during the solid body construction process (well at least that I know of). Honestly, the tone of wood in solid body construction is a painful discussion. Short of very generalized statements I would rather not discuss it (like you said you change the shape/volume of the wood and it vibrates differently- how can you be specific about something so varied). Anyhow... fyb knows how to "tap" for what its worth. P.S. Just for the sake of curiosity. Why do you think tapping a soundboard would be practical if you see it as silly?? Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashin Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 this may be an advanced question... but when you hold a solidbody guitar at the headstock, and carefully tap the body, you can make out several noticeable nodes. From a sustain standpoint, do you want the bridge at a node, or at a excitation point? My guitar has a distinct node at the location of the bridge. Due to it's somehat common shape I am assuming this may be true for most other conventional solid bodies.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 this may be an advanced question... but when you hold a solidbody guitar at the headstock, and carefully tap the body, you can make out several noticeable nodes. From a sustain standpoint, do you want the bridge at a node, or at a excitation point? My guitar has a distinct node at the location of the bridge. Due to it's somehat common shape I am assuming this may be true for most other conventional solid bodies.... First of all your bridge placement is set (scale length and alignment with the neck). So it is really not an option to randomly change that. As far as it being located on a "node" I would be curious to know how you deterimined that point is a node. When I think of a node (as in tapping a soundboard) it is the location where I hold the board and it does not dampen the vibration of the board. By that I mean. I hold the board in one spot tap the board and it does not ring (my fingers are inhibiting the vibration). I move where I am holding the board and it vibrates better. The spot that I find that allows the board to vibrate best is the "node". That said.... On an electric. You have strings that are vibrating and the points with the least motion would ne your "node"). Now as soon as you fret and change the length of the vibrating string that "node" is going to move a certain distance relative to the new vibrating string length. As far as the body and hardwares location (where it introduces energy to the body). The way the instrument will vibrate is dynamic with the frequency of string virbation. If somehow you found an optimal neck and bridge location (and mind you this would have to be associated with a very specific neck and body- both in shape, thickness, stiffness,density and so forth/ and we know wood is not that consistent from piece to piece) it would be just a best situation for certain frequecy or optimized for a narrow band. Point being... It is not as simple as looking at one point. Tap testing is really more of a generic test to hear how something vibrates, and not to use as specific data (ie.. hardware placement, tuning to pitch(I could get slammed for that), and other specific design elements). Peace,Rich P.S. I hope that didn't sound too out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 I tap all my wood. Not quite sure why, but i do!! I am the crazy guy going round tapping every peice of wood i see With neck/slash fingerboard wood when you get a peice of wood that really rings i know its going to be good. I recently got some wenge neck blanks and ziracote fretboards that sounded like metal when you tapped them, perfect!! But if that was body wood (like some paduak i used a year ago) the guitar might end up a little bright so i listen more for a hollow ringing on those. What you generally dont want is soemthing that sounds like a dull thud when you tap it, unless its like the swamp ash i had from stew-mac which sounded amazing when the guitar was finished!! Its something thats really hard to quantify so i think its important to keep on tapping wood till you as a builder know what the sound means to you and what the end result might be. I am getting a few ideas about it from 20 odd guitars but its gonna take a lot longer than that before i claim to know anything more. Some people use those drumsticks with balls on the end, its a good idea. Saves the knuckles and gives a clearer tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashin Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 Fryovanni, I believe we may be talking about the same thing. Correct me if I am wrong... Only the geometry of the instrument will determine the vibration pattern. Assuming all other properties (density, etc) are constant throuhout the instrument, these will only affect amplitude. This being said, a node is a point on that pattern where the amplitude is zero. Holding the guitar as you do at a node, and tapping on a non-node location will yield a tone. As you tap closer to a point on that pattern where the amplitude is maximum, the louder the tone will be. This is a way to determine nodes and areas of high amplitude. What I was doing was holding the guitar at a point far from where I want to test, (i.e. the headstock), and tapping around the body. Here you can find the nodes in slightly the same manner. The dead areas are the nodes. Granted, holding the guitar in any place will change the pattern, but the headstock should be far enough away for all practical purposes. What I was curious about, was since my guitar looks similar to a fender, and I had noticeable nodes at the bridge area, is this something that is also unique to most solidbodies?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 All i know is, i just built up 3 neck blanks from clear hard maple. Three strips laminated vertically for each. When i got them out of the clamps, I tapped each of them in several ways, as mentioned above. One of them stood out with a belllike ringing, while the others weren't exactly dull, but not like the first. It was a night and day difference, and the dimensions of the blanks are identical. Now, I am not claiming anything, and i am sure that as soon as i start shaping, the "tone" may very well change and be deteremined by it's final dimensions. But which one do you think I'm going to grab first? KOMODO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarGuy Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 All i know is, i just built up 3 neck blanks from clear hard maple. Three strips laminated vertically for each. When i got them out of the clamps, I tapped each of them in several ways, as mentioned above. One of them stood out with a belllike ringing, while the others weren't exactly dull, but not like the first. It was a night and day difference, and the dimensions of the blanks are identical. Now, I am not claiming anything, and i am sure that as soon as i start shaping, the "tone" may very well change and be deteremined by it's final dimensions. But which one do you think I'm going to grab first? KOMODO I like it... A tad bit of scientific method. You have me curious now. So maybe I'll be one of the crazies in the wood store now as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 I am not sure how I would evaluate a neck blank exactly? When I take a soundboard and bring it to thickness I get a nice ringing sound (maybe a bit too loose). I attach ruff shaped bracing and it dies (really dampens the ringing). As I shape the braces it slowely comes back to life and that is when it is close (I take it down to where it sounds a little too loose again, because it tightens back up when it is attached to the box. Now a neck... I am not sure what would clue me in, but I guess it ringing nicely is a great sign . Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
komodo Posted August 10, 2006 Report Share Posted August 10, 2006 I am not sure what would clue me in, but I guess it ringing nicely is a great sign Ya hehehe. I'm not saying I swear by it, just something I noticed and as I said . . guess which one I'll work with first? All kinds of things could influence a tap tone, and you're right . .tapping a neck blank isn't going to tell you much really, but I'll take all I can get. It seems very fashionable to insert carbon strips inside your necks these days. Most claim that it eliminates dead spots, which should make the whole neck more resonant? So in theory, shouldn't a blank that rings lie a bell should be "better" to start with than one that doesn't? I don't really care one way or another, I'll use the "bell-like blank" and I'll put carbon it it as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 I tap everything. Even 12 foot 8/4 boards. Works fine. I know it may not be rational, but I'd rather have wood that's 'responsive', that vibrates in a pleasing, musical manner, than stuff that will only give me a dull thud. What the dull thud implies to me is a) there may be hidden flaws or cracks in there that are interfering with the vibrations it may just be one of those bits of wood that has higher damping/vibration absorbtion than others. Don't particularly want either in an instrument, ergo the tapping. I don't look for a frequency or anything else (dimensions affect that), just a certain basic 'musicality' to it. It's a gut feeling when it comes to electrics, and a gut feeling with slightly more thinking behind it if we're talking thin plates (soundboards, etc. which get flexed and tapped) So far, it's worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macimalac Posted August 22, 2006 Report Share Posted August 22, 2006 I tap everything. Even 12 foot 8/4 boards. Works fine. I know it may not be rational, but I'd rather have wood that's 'responsive', that vibrates in a pleasing, musical manner, than stuff that will only give me a dull thud. What the dull thud implies to me is a) there may be hidden flaws or cracks in there that are interfering with the vibrations it may just be one of those bits of wood that has higher damping/vibration absorbtion than others. Don't particularly want either in an instrument, ergo the tapping. I don't look for a frequency or anything else (dimensions affect that), just a certain basic 'musicality' to it. It's a gut feeling when it comes to electrics, and a gut feeling with slightly more thinking behind it if we're talking thin plates (soundboards, etc. which get flexed and tapped) So far, it's worked for me. Exatly what I am doing. Besides, when my local rosewod supplier noticed what I am doing, he gave me extra discount on the selected fretboard blank, because he would not overcharge "real instrument builders". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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