What Sort Of Spray Gun Should I Get?

[Venom300]

I got two questions for the forum today. My birthday is coming up soon and I will be getting a compressor. I am also going to be getting a spray gun. I was just curious as to what type of spray gun that I should get for finished guitars. All of the painting will be with an airbrush. So the larger spray gun will just be used for lacquer.. maybe base coats. I will be building a spray booth and also will be getting a mask. So my next question is with a spray booth and my gun which is the best lacquer to use with it? I have been thinking about nitro because I like the fact that it meld together. But it takes so long to cure. Is there another lacquer that has a better curing time and melds together to prevent witness line? Sorry I know there are a lot of questions. Thank you for you time

Steven

[chunkielad]

I'd always work ith a HVLP, Gravity fed gun. The best quality you can afford and get a water trap too.

[erikbojerik]

"Use the Search, Luke!"

[Venom300]

I dislike the search it brings up way, too many threads to read through. I was at work when the idea struck me and didn't have the time to go through them.. normally I would. Thanks again.

Venom

[Mattia]

Top options: SATA MiniJet HVLP gravity feed gun, and what everyone else said. They're expensive, but worth it. Check Homestead Finishing (google, maybe google Jeff Jewitt) for some cheaper alternatives that get good press as well, like Asturo. 1.0mm regular tip, maybe 1.2mm regular tip max are good options for nitro or waterbased stuff, no real experience with polys.

[Drak]

Just buy the basic Campbell-Hausfeld pint gun at Home Depot until you get the hang of what you're doing, I don't believe in buying tools beyond your present skill level, it's a waste of money in my eyes.

Having fancy high dollar equipment will not help you one iota if you don't have the skills to take advantage of the refinements offered, and it takes TIME, and LOTS of shooting, to gain your skills. Then you'll be ready for a high dollar gun if you feel you need it.

BTW, I've been shooting finishes for 12 years now, and still use that C-H gun all the time, and I'll put my finishes up against anything PRS can come up with any day of the week.

It's in your brain, your experience, and your skills, not in the equipment.

If you're not even a good enough driver to pass a basic driving test, what good is a Ferrari to you at that point in time?

And there's one or two people around that I've seen buying a lot of big machinery that still can't build themselves out of a paper bag yet after years of trying, so there ya go, I think that tells the story.

[chunkielad]

I agree to an extent Drak but I found my gun to be a big help in getting me to the standard I needed to be at.

It's easy to set up, easy to get going with and easy to get a decent finish out of.

Oh and by the way it wasn't THAT expensive - it cost me £35 (isn't that about $60-$70?). If you clean it, it'll outlive you.

You are right that it would be pointless to get a £100 gun - there's no need. Just the fact that mine is a gravity fed HVLP made things much easier.

I go back to my crappy suction gun every now and then to see how much better I'm getting and every time I have problems getting the air right without causing the paint to come out too dry yet still lift it from the cup. I get there it's just a pain.

I use a 1.2 nozzle by the way and I only normally spray 2pack which is a pain in the ass and I know you guys have problems getting it over there but the principles are the same what ever you spray.

[Maiden69]

And there's one or two people around that I've seen buying a lot of big machinery that still can't build themselves out of a paper bag yet after years of trying, so there ya go, I think that tells the story.

Cheap jamb door gun is all you need. But if you can get it gravity feed is better for the fact that you use al lthe paint inside!!

[Venom300]

Sweet thanks that helps a lot. I'll go to harbor freight and check it out. What do you use to clean and spray gun after spraying lacquer ( or what ever clear you choose) lacquer thinner? Water? What? I'll search it. Thanks again

Steve

[Drak]

Learning to use a spray gun is actually quite similar to using a real gun, you need to be able to completely disassemble and reassemble it quickly and easily, know how to clean it and know what all the knobs do and what to do with them, this is part of learning the skills I talked about.

I will talk about shooting nitro lacquer, since that's what I'm doing most of the time.

Besides buying your lacquer, you need a source of quality thinner and trashy thinner.

Trashy thinner is what you'll use to clean your gun and soak the parts after spraying, and is your typical Home Depot or Loews lacquer thinner.

You will learn to use a pair of tongs or long needle nose pliers to remove your parts from the glass jar full of thinner instead of using your fingers. Or use those long skinny medical clampy things we use to use to hold weed with.

You will learn that there are different 'speeds' of the quality thinner. Fast, medium, and slow, and the slower the thinner, the more retarder it has in it, the longer it takes to dry, the longer it is giving moisture to escape before it dries. You will learn thru experience which one works best for you and your situation (your personal climatic conditions)

You will learn how much thinner-to-lacquer will work for your situation to get a sweet fat coat of lacquer with no runs or doesn't go on dry.

You will learn the hard way (if you don't use them) how important moisture traps are to have (I use 2 at all times myself)

You will learn 15 years from now that if you shoot with no protection you will die from it sooner or later, and have to walk around with an oxygen cannister all the time in the years before you die because you can't breath on your own any more.

This will all come in time and experience, and sooner or later, you too will have 'the skills', and can then buy whatever spray gun you deem appropriate for your needs at that time.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

Y

ou are right that it would be pointless to get a £100 gun - there's no need. Just the fact that mine is a gravity fed HVLP made things much easier.

HVLP's are sweet, no doubt about it.

I go back to my crappy suction gun every now and then to see how much better I'm getting and every time I have problems getting the air right without causing the paint to come out too dry yet still lift it from the cup. I get there it's just a pain.

It's not crappy at all, you just haven't learned how to shoot thru it yet, so I would call that operator error, not faulty equipment (it ain't that hard).

I use a 1.2 nozzle by the way and I only normally spray 2pack which is a pain in the ass and I know you guys have problems getting it over there but the principles are the same what ever you spray.

I disagree a bit, some principles are the same, others are not.

A HUGE exception is that 2-pack (if it's what I think it is), if left to harden in the gun because you didn't clean it out after every use, will completely ruin the gun, there is no forgiveness with that finish, or Poly, or any catalyzing or reactive type of finish.

With nitro, you can be a totally lazy bastid and not clean your guns for awhile and it'll always melt and clean up just fine when soaked in thinner, so nitro and shellac are very forgiving in that respect, and it is a very important point to make inDEED if you don't want to go buying new spray guns every week.

[Mattia]

I dunno; spend the money once on a good tool if you're reasonably certain you'll use it more often. A crap gun is much, much more difficult to use than a good quality gun, and good quality guns are easier to get replacement parts for, work better, handle better, and are more fun to use. I wouldn't get a SATA as a first gun, perhaps, but I would certainly get an HVLP, if only for the cost savings; you will save a significant amount of money if you're using semi-expensive to expensive finishes. Less overspray is also less annoying. I don't see much value in having to fight your finicky, difficult to use equipment. Sure, a really good operator could get great results with that gun, but that doesn't mean the tool's a good one, by any stretch of the imagination.

Don't make it hard on yourself strictly for 'educational' purposes. I'm with you on the cat finishes though; if you're starting out with those, get cheap guns. Say an HVLP unit from Harbor Freight (which I've heard surprisingly good things about), because you probably will screw things up somewhere, and your gun very well may die on you.

[oz tradie]

+1 for a hvlp

Why make it harder for yourself?

I've used all gun configurations over 17 years and I'll only use what gives me infinite control.

[chunkielad]

Drak, you misunderstood me I think mate. The crappy gun problems are user error defo, i don't dispute that but my HVLP gravity fed was MUCH easier to learn. For the little extra it cost it made my life easier and I had to practise a lot less. I am lazy and impatient so it was the best buy ever. I want to spray a guitar not mess with practising. I use my gun a lot on motorcycles and the odd car panel so it's important I'm spraying not learning. I still agree that no one should spend silly money though. If there's a local automotive repair suppliers near by, they usually have what I need and I get it at a decent price.

2Pack is literally a 2 part acrylic enamel which is used in automotive repair over here and replaced Celly totally quite a few years back. It's basially a resin and activator which chemically harden rather than relying on evaporation. The main problem is, it's poisonous and nasty for the environment so most of us are moving over to the new water based versions. 2pack (or 2K as it's otherwise known) is a bitch to use well and you need an air fed mask or your lungs will just stop working one day - it really is that bd and has cyanide as it's main component! Here's a good link with some basic info. http://www.austinsevenfriends.com/paint.htm

The benefits are great though. It's as hard as nails when it's cured. The curing time is easily cut down to 40 mins in a commercial spray both over but decent infra reds will get it down to a coule of hours or a week if not heat used. It NEVER yellows and each coat goes on quite thick so there's only about 4-5 coats on the guitar - less spraying and less time to using the beast!

If you don't clean your gun well, you might as well chuch it in the bin.

The secret I think is a good balance between quality and price. A decent gun will be easy to set up and you will get a decent finish quickly but an eaxpensive gun will be a waste of money if you spray a couple of guitars a year and nothing else.

Edited August 26, 2006 by chunkielad

[Venom300]

I don't wanna buy a really expensive gun and I don't think with the compressor I am using that an HVLP gun would work best. I will probably go to harbor freight and pick up a gun to start with. I am gonna paint a crap load of 2x4's that way I can get that practice before spraying. Drak said something about thinning nitro. I assume your thinning the nitro with the quality thinner and not the trash. My only question is that is there a set like 50 - 50 or 75-25. I guess i'll just have to practice with it. Thank you for your help I really do appreciate it. And don't worry I plan on building a spray booth and getting a respirator because I like my lungs.

Thanks

Venom

[Drak]

1. Yes, you use the 'quality' thinner to mix with your lacquer. You need to find a source for quality thinner, you're not going to find it at Home Depot or places like that.

2. 50/50 is a good place to start, you will learn to adjust for more or less depending on your environment and what specifically you're doing, i.e. when I'm shooting a burst, my mixture is more like 90% thinner and 10% lacquer, but when shooting clearcoats it's more like 60% lacquer / 40% thinner. You'll learn this over time.

Nice post chunky, I agree with you on most everything you stated.

Your 2-pack sounds like my catalyzed lacquer, which I think also uses cyanide as a catalyst (I think), and the attributes sound identical to what I find with my Cat-Lac.

Don't make it hard on yourself strictly for 'educational' purposes. I don't see much value in having to fight your finicky, difficult to use equipment.

Mattia, I would never recommend someone buy a piece of trash gun for ANY reason, but the standard grade C-H gun at Home Depot is a fine quality gun, and if someone is having trouble learning how to use it, then they have no reason to blame the gun, it can't be any easier to use than it already is.

++++++++++++++

Edited to add:

The point I'm trying to make here is that today, everybody seems to want the simplist and easiest way to get something done, and what happens is that they never wind up pushing themselves beyond simple and easy, which is a copout to themselves in a way.

You'll never do PRS quality finishes if your main focus is ALWAYS the simplist and easiest way to do something, like having it spoon-fed to you, and really, PRS finishes are not that hard to do, unless you lower the bar of what you'll accept from yourself (for reasons of simplicity and easiness) so low that you wind up cheating yourself in the end by thinking that to learn how to use a good spraygun is so hard that it's not worth the bother.

I want people to set HIGH standards for themselves and what kind of quality they will accept from their own work, which you don't always get if your primary focus is always ease of use and simplicity.

[Mattia]

Drak, perhaps it's simply because of what I can find here, namely: either it's crap, non-branded chinese import stuff (my first), or it's a SATA, maybe a DeVilbiss Finishline if you find a specialized shop (FINALLY found one here that delivers good quality nonpaint paint articles for good prices, from sandpaper to spray guns). I've never seen standard quality guns in shops here, so I may be a little biased. It's quite a common 'problem' here: it's easy enough to get lousy tools, easy enough to get professional tools, not terribly easy to find stuff sitting in the middle.

I wasn't trying to say you shouldn't learn how to operate the cheaper guns; the cheap guns and expensive ones all operate on basically the same principles, gravity feed is gravity feed whether HVLP or regular, still have the same basic controls. I'm just saying you don't have to pay your dues on a poorly designed tool if you can afford a decent to good one upfront. Little more.

[Drak]

OK.

I never used a really super cheap gun, so I can see what you mean, maybe they do completely suck wind.

Didn't mean to imply anything, I just want people to set good strong goals for themselves.

[chunkielad]

Drak, as a fan of your work (your work is what made me decide this next project is a tele!) I totally get where you are coming from. If we don't strive for better we will never get there or anywhere close. That doesn't mean things have to be hard though does it? I use the gun I have because I get on with it and it makes my life easy. I get decent results that with time will be great.With the cheaper gun I get bad results that with more time will be good. I just want to make the best guitar I can and if that means making things easier so I spend less time practising and more time doing then i'm all for that.

[mikhailgtrski]

I don't wanna buy a really expensive gun and I don't think with the compressor I am using that an HVLP gun would work best.

My only question is that is there a set like 50 - 50 or 75-25.

Yes, I think most HVLPs require more air than most lower-end compressors can provide.

I have one of the C-H detail guns ($25 on sale at Lowes, I think) and it does a decent job. Drak is right, it's all about learning to operate the thing, and learning what lacquer/thinner/retarder ratios work. Not all lacquers are created equal, so you really have to know what you're working with. I learned the hard way. Fortunately Drak was there to talk me through it.

IMHO I'd suggest:

1) Get the "Guitar Finishing Step-By-Step" book from Stewmac and read it several times. Plus any other good finishing books you can get your hands on.

2) Watch the "Spray Finishing Basics" VHS, also from Stewmac. Over and over.

3) Invest in the best compressor you can afford. I had nothing but trouble with some of the lower-end units, until I got my Craftsman. The more CFM the better, in case you decide to upgrade your gun later.

4) Start out with a standard spray gun and practice practice practice. You'll start to get the hang of it after 20 coats or so.

5) Have fun with it! Once you get a feel for it and you start laying down nice, glassy coats you'll be hooked.

Mike

[erikbojerik]

BTW....just to clarify...(widsom picked up from an automotive shooting buddy)

When shooting 2-pack or catalyzed lacquer or 2-part automotive poly, a carbon filter respirator won't to the job, by any stretch...not even close. You need a full air-tight mask with a hose that supplies clean air to your face from outside your spray area.

Think scuba.

[chunkielad]

BTW....just to clarify...(widsom picked up from an automotive shooting buddy)

When shooting 2-pack or catalyzed lacquer or 2-part automotive poly, a carbon filter respirator won't to the job, by any stretch...not even close. You need a full air-tight mask with a hose that supplies clean air to your face from outside your spray area.

Think scuba.

+1 on that - i have an airfed visor which works on the principle of a high pressure inside the mask which means no fumes can get in the sides. This is the very least you should use.

[PaintIt]

BTW....just to clarify...(widsom picked up from an automotive shooting buddy)

When shooting 2-pack or catalyzed lacquer or 2-part automotive poly, a carbon filter respirator won't to the job, by any stretch...not even close. You need a full air-tight mask with a hose that supplies clean air to your face from outside your spray area.

Think scuba.

+1 on that - i have an airfed visor which works on the principle of a high pressure inside the mask which means no fumes can get in the sides. This is the very least you should use.

In the end regardless of what gun you use you are going to sand and polish the finish to get it perfectly smooth. I have many guns by Iwata and Sata and they are great and will lay down a really smooth clear or base. If you do not learn to flow your clear you will always have orange peel. So laying down a great flowed out clear makes for less sanding but the polishing is the same after that. I would spend money on a decent gun but also a good variable speed electric buffer and 3inch air buffer. Also a good pad and compound system. I prefer the 3M perfectit system and the foam waffle buffing pads.

[Dino]

In the end regardless of what gun you use you are going to sand and polish the finish to get it perfectly smooth. I have many guns by Iwata and Sata and they are great and will lay down a really smooth clear or base. If you do not learn to flow your clear you will always have orange peel. So laying down a great flowed out clear makes for less sanding but the polishing is the same after that. I would spend money on a decent gun but also a good variable speed electric buffer and 3inch air buffer. Also a good pad and compound system. I prefer the 3M perfectit system and the foam waffle buffing pads.

+1 ...

Applying the paint is only part of the process.

Edited August 29, 2006 by Maiden69