Flat Fretboard

[sexybeast]

Actually I'm not that worried about it, although you may gather otherwise from this post. This thought just surfaced while I was driving.

I understand what action means, but it relates to playability and string vibration as well. Action means nothing without the ability to playthe guitar.

And where does the drawing show a finger joint? I'm illustrating the circular vibration of a guitar string.

But in all fairness, you have way more experience than me. I'm just working this suff out. I'll let everybody know how it comes out one way or another. Peace.

[rhoads56]

you stated, in the picture, that the action was a vertical measurement (its not). Regardless of if you knew this or not, thats what you presented as a reason a flat fretboard might be able to have lower action (it cant).

I RESPONDED, by saying (being, err, pedantic) that you've forgotten that your finger doesnt move in a perpendicular movement, but rather a (rough) arc, and therefore has more chance of pushing a string at anything BUT the direct vertical....

My sarcastic (but none the less, correct) reply was if you are being so exact in your search for the truth, maybe consider ALL the motions involved with string action, and playability.

See it now? Good

[sexybeast]

Thanks, I feel better now.

But I don't appreciate the condescension. I asked a simple question and if you don't want to answer it, don't. I tink everybody can do without the "We've been through this before..." stuff. Nobody's butting into a conversation here, so you don't have to take even one second to answer. I wasn't arguing with anyone, just trying to figure it out. If giving help is a chore, don't bother.

Just about everybody here has been really cool, but there are a few members that seem to feel superior to others and talk down to them. That's not cool at all and I for one resent it. It makes learning how to do something you love unpleasant.

[fryovanni]

Actually I'm not that worried about it, although you may gather otherwise from this post. This thought just surfaced while I was driving.

I understand what action means, but it relates to playability and string vibration as well. Action means nothing without the ability to playthe guitar.

And where does the drawing show a finger joint? I'm illustrating the circular vibration of a guitar string.

But in all fairness, you have way more experience than me. I'm just working this suff out. I'll let everybody know how it comes out one way or another. Peace.

If I understand the issue(and bear with me I have never thought too much about this) you raise the string(fret side) as you pull tward the higher point on the radius(making the effect very slight or possibly raising the strings relation to the higher frets). If you pull the string over the radius(or down the radius) then you are going to see a drop in the clearance relation at the higher frets. So it makes sense that flat could give you better clearance in some situations, if nothing else remove the variable. For me personally it really would depend on how comfortable you are with a flat fretboard vs a radiused. Like you said it is more about the playability.

One thing that I have always done is slightly taper the higher frets down a bit (this may part of why I was so oblivious to the issue). The point of the string that should have the highest potential to buzz due to vibrating is about the mid point between the fretted point(nut if played open) and the bridge(Perry, you can correct me if I am wrong. That is just my way of thinking about it). That would make 12th fret (open) and higher frets most suseptable. A small amount of relief is a nice solutiion, and a bit of taper is an extra degree of clearance that I like to allow for more dynamic play(playing a little harder at times). I do not like it when the action is set tooooo low because you limit that bit of potential for dynamics. Not to mention every neck will adjust a little with the changing of the seasons(humidity), and I am not a huge fan of constantly adjusting the necks on all of my guitars so they will play this month.

Again I don't do this for a living(personally I would take the advice of a tech that works on hundreds of guitars a month over a hobbiest(like me ) that works on a couple dozen a year), but I would focus on getting your fretboard and frets true with accurate technique and tools. Then practice good set ups (again tools and technique-maybe a good setup jig for better measurments). My gut tells me you will have bigger issues with how off YOU are than the design(not a slam, same holds true of myself , but we get better with experience).

Peace,Rich

P.S. Thanks for posting this topic! I have learned something new yet again.

[sexybeast]

My gut tells me you will have bigger issues with how off YOU are than the design(not a slam, same holds true of myself , but we get better with experience).

Peace,Rich

P.S. Thanks for posting this topic! I have learned something new yet again.

Pretty much right on the head, Rich. But I AM interested in giving it try to see how I like it.

[fryovanni]

You would never know how you like it unless you try it . I was going to use a slight radius on my latest project (looking for flatter), but I think I will just go dead flat and see what I think.

Peace,Rich

[Prostheta]

My five-string bass has a 24" radius and it feels slow and no fun to solo on because of the radius/comfort issue. Never frets out when bending, mind and has an action as low as your mom!

[postal]

Schmexxy beast,

It just boils down to personal preference. Hand a classical player an old strat with a 9.5 radius, they'll look at you crosseyed.... hand a classical flat radius to somebody who grew up with a strat, and they'll look at you crosseyed.

I like rock/punk/metal/alt.... but most classical players stomp all over any of those other types of guitar players... hands down. It isnt the radius that counts- obviously

For you're build, I cautiously say go for it. The caution being, leave the fretboard a full 1/4 thick, and after you've tried it out for awhile, if you dont like it, you can pull the nut/frets, sand in a radius, refret, resetup and have a normal guitar. You're only out some time, frets and a nut.

[Robert Irizarry]

sexybeast - Take a look at Anatomy of a TK. Luthier Todd Keehn uses a flat radius as standard on his guitars and has some comments to support his use of it. If anything, it serves as inspiration...

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[Hydrogeoman]

Thanks, I feel better now.

But I don't appreciate the condescension. I asked a simple question and if you don't want to answer it, don't. I tink everybody can do without the "We've been through this before..." stuff. Nobody's butting into a conversation here, so you don't have to take even one second to answer. I wasn't arguing with anyone, just trying to figure it out. If giving help is a chore, don't bother.

Just about everybody here has been really cool, but there are a few members that seem to feel superior to others and talk down to them. That's not cool at all and I for one resent it. It makes learning how to do something you love unpleasant.

+2 Jeez Perry, did somebody pee in your cornflakes?

[rhoads56]

you know, i dont really care.

If you want advice, thats fine. But when amatuers post (and really, thats is exactly what happened) and give false information, i'll correct it.

Alex's PRE EDITTED post, made it out i was incorrect, when i wasnt. He simply confused the matter, by posting EXACTLY what i had said early, but whilst suggesting i was incorrect. At my suggestion, he has since gone back and editted his post.

If you think im harsh, go and read the other 2000 odd posts ive made, they are all the same. Im not here to socialise, i have real live friends for that. If you want help, i can give you my professional experience, which is one of what, damn, thats right, im virtually the only one.

Sexybeast, i'll remember to avoid your queries and let the guys who dont do this for a living, lead you up the garden path. In no way did i ever have a go at you, i was just direct and straight to the point. If you wanted flowers and cupcakes with my answers, well, you aint going to get it.

Cheers!

[Nitefly SA]

despite people lining up to buy your 3000 dollar guitars which are actually worth it people still don't ever listen to your advice, I don't get it.

[Hydrogeoman]

you know, i dont really care.

Stating the obvious?

If you want advice, thats fine. But when amatuers post (and really, thats is exactly what happened) and give false information, i'll correct it.

Insults free of charge.

If you think im harsh, go and read the other 2000 odd posts ive made, they are all the same.

You are right. They are all the same. I have read many of your posts, and frankly a good portion of them are nothing more than inflamatory and of little use to anyone other than to feed your inflated ego. Actually..... I take that back, I have found myself occasionally looking for your posts not so much for the educational value but the entertainment value. I am amused that you are always blowing somebody up with your rude responses. Were you not loved as a child?

Im not here to socialise, i have real live friends for that.

So does that mean you really are not an A-hole in real life, just here as a VIP?

If you want help, i can give you my professional experience, which is one of what, damn, thats right, im virtually the only one.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here mate. That you are the only professional here and we should bow and kiss the ring so to speak whenever you decide to chime in?

Sexybeast, i'll remember to avoid your queries and let the guys who dont do this for a living, lead you up the garden path.

You really think that a guy has to do this for a living to be able to give valid useful information? I have seen the work and input of many of the "guys who don't do this for a living" on this site and their skills and knowledge are on par with any self proclaimed "pro." This stuff ain't rocket science brother.

In no way did i ever have a go at you, i was just direct and straight to the point.

If you wanted flowers and cupcakes with my answers, well, you aint going to get it.

I don't think anybody around here wants flowers and cupcakes Perry, they are mostly looking for honest (and civil) discussion without having to be insulted by self important know it alls. I just wonder if you would be as rude to people in person as you are to people on this forum knowing you have this nice safety zone of the web around you. I doubt it. Maybe you should check yourself.

Cheers!

Yeah, cheers.

Sorry to pipe in here Sexybeast, I just get tired of some of the poor manners of some of the folks around here. Just caught me in a mood.

despite people lining up to buy your 3000 dollar guitars which are actually worth it people still don't ever listen to your advice, I don't get it.

Nitefly, I don't think it is that people don't listen to Perry's advice. It is the way in which he communicates his advice that puts people off. Not everybody here is in awe of his $3k guitars and just because he can command that price, it should not give him the right to act like a tool anytime somebody disagrees with his assessment.

[rhoads56]

[fryovanni]

You know I read Perry's posts and just didn't take anything about them personally, and I was trying to understand the subject.

This board has a lot of people. A lot of youth, ego, experience, inexperience, bold and mild personality. We deal with a lot of subjective topics and some that are not so subjective. The information that is out there in the building community is distorted many times with hype and unsubstantiated opinion. In that environment you can either take things for what they are or get your heart broken daily. My personal measure of what is not acceptable is if a person is trying to give mis information or be deceptive to be harmful. If a person is trying to give helpful information(how ever they present it, within the guidelines of the board rules) so be it.

The longer you see information being dished out, people looking to justify things, people selling their ideas(sometimes based on 95% opinion given as fact), people looking for straight forward responces to generalized questions. The same question being asked 4 times a month for the last few years. You start to understand frustration, short responces, dry answers(that can be taken as less than gental and caring, but it is just an internet board how personal can you take things ). You can't tell a person to change who they are just because you think they act superior or you think their ego is overinflated(given they are not breaking forum rules). If you don't want Perry's input(because he offends you) you can ask him not to respond (of course it sounds like he is going to remedy that for you without having to be asked).

Peace,Rich

[Hydrogeoman]

You know I read Perry's posts and just didn't take anything about them personally, and I was trying to understand the subject. .............Peace,Rich

Rich your point is well taken, and I do agree that no forum rules have been broken here. My main point is that if a member wants to respond to discussion in a manner that is generally considered rude by most people's standards, then that person should expect to get occasional flames in return from other members.

Most of us are here to learn, I know I am, but just because I may know more or less than somebody else on a particular subject does not mean I have to be disrespectful to them when stating my point. Maybe Mr. Ormsby could take this opportunity to work on his communication skills, but as his post stated "you know, i really don't care." I am just calling a spade a spade.

Greg

[Primal]

I still think that you all rag on Perry too much. Seriously, if you read through his posts in this thread, there is nothing rude about any of them. Terse, maybe. But terse does NOT equal rude, although some may think so. Perry doesn't riddle his posts with fluff, and quite frankly, if you can't handle curt responses, that sounds like a personal problem to me. I hope you all don't get as emotionally scarred when someone is terse with you in real life as you all seem to on this forum...

[fryovanni]

You know I read Perry's posts and just didn't take anything about them personally, and I was trying to understand the subject. .............Peace,Rich

Rich your point is well taken, and I do agree that no forum rules have been broken here. My main point is that if a member wants to respond to discussion in a manner that is generally considered rude by most people's standards, then that person should expect to get occasional flames in return from other members.

Most of us are here to learn, I know I am, but just because I may know more or less than somebody else on a particular subject does not mean I have to be disrespectful to them when stating my point. Maybe Mr. Ormsby could take this opportunity to work on his communication skills, but as his post stated "you know, i really don't care." I am just calling a spade a spade.

Greg

Fair enough. Perry is a Tuff SOB so I am sure he can take as much or more than he dishes out. I honestly believe he has a great desire to help and teach. Otherwise I doubt he would have been around here for this long. I would hope that most guys are here to share and learn. As far as being respectful. Well like I said I don't see the Malice that you percieve(that may just be because I don't care what people think of my knowledge or ability, it just doesn't feed my ego that much). To be honest with you I probably give more wishy washy answers and kinda correct answers because I don't want to hurt peoples feelings. A good portion of the time I erase an honest post because I say "you know, I really don't care". There are two sides to the coin.

[sexybeast]

I didn't mean to start a pile-on, really. And I don't need cupcakes and whatever, I just don't need the condescension and rudeness. You can be curt and still not rude.

And just to set the record straight, I appreciate any help people give to me, I realize it takes time out of their day to help a stranger. I'm also not stupid, I ask for advice and sift through it to see what works.

Perry, if you want to avoid me, fine. I realize you know more about this than me, but it doesn't excuse the attitude. Don't try to disguise is as being frank, it's being rude. I don't think you had a run at me, you just seem irate with my question and the way I went about trying to understand your answer. I'm always willing to bury hatchets, so there's no reason for a feud, but I'm not a kid and I won't lay still for being talked down to.

[pmarlin]

My understanding has always been that a slightly higher action was better for bends so that the string could slide slightly under the next string, and lower action for, as perry said, sweeps/ shred.

[rhoads56]

How about less discussion, and more building! (oooo, bossy!)

There are already enough ideas floating around this forum which will never be built, without more fluff. (provocative, terse, rude, whatever!)

Oh, here ya go, heres a smiliey to lighten the entire post!

[Hydrogeoman]

How about less discussion, and more building! (oooo, bossy!)

There are already enough ideas floating around this forum which will never be built, without more fluff. (provocative, terse, rude, whatever!)

Oh, here ya go, heres a smiliey to lighten the entire post!

thank you for continuing to prove correct all of my previous comments

[rhoads56]

Greg, while you guys are all sitting back wondering 'why this guy is so <insert whatever>', im sitting back wondering what all the fuss is. Honestly, im not here to hurt anyones feelings, and i could care less about who wants to listen to what i have to say. If you choose to be offended, thats your choice. If you choose to see it as it is, just getting down to the point, then all the better for you. Im not going to change the way i am, because you might take it the wrong way, i really dont care. Take it or leave it dude, seriously, either way is no bother to me.

Im off do build something while you guys talk some more. :D (smilies = joke, right?)

[MidnightLamp]

Hey,

I've been following this thread, and don't particularly want to pipe up, because more than likely I'm wrong...but has anyone considered the bridge?

My thoughts on getting low action (as someone who has set up their fair share of guitars) is that 99.999999999% of the trouble ends up coming from the bridge. Sure, you can radius the frets perfectly, and have the truss rod perfectly set, but without the proper settings on the bridge and nut, you just can't go as low as you'd want to.

My problem always comes from the saddle height settings which are THE most neglected settings on a bridge. If the bridge is not properly curved, you're just not going to get the ultra low action and playability you want. On a flat fretboard, you don't have to worry about that, as it's easy to set all the saddles to be perfectly straight and level, and set the nut to be just like that. On a guitar with a floyd for example: without too much work, you can make all the saddle heights perfectly even, but have fun doing any real radius without a crapload of shims... Basically, the way I understood it, this was the whole reasoning behind having a compound radius fretboard. By making the fretboard have a flat radius near the end, you can compensate for having less adjustment on the bridge, and the nut holds the strings at the proper radius at the other end.

Either way, the point is that in an ideal situation, you can make any guitar play with ultra low action, and bend fairly well. If you want to have ultra low action, like the feel of a classical guitar and want to bend madly...then maybe the flat fretboard is for you. The way I see it, with a 1/4 inch fretboard, even if you did radius it, you'd still slot the thing for frets first. So as mentioned before, just cut the fret slots and fret it as is when building. If you don't like it, just pull out the frets, radius it (just remove the nut and mask the headstock), and put the frets back in.

Peace.