hendrikjan Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 When making a laminated neck people always us a "vertically" oriented lamination, does this have reason? Somehow I think that a " horizontal" lamination would structuraly be more sound.... (stronger) Anyone have any ideas on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I dont really see a difference, the laminate is to switch the grains up.. you could make some cool lams verticaly.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Laminates are vertical to go with the wood grain and reinforce strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Vertical grain effectively gives you a quartersawn laminate, while horizontal grain is basically flatsawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
low end fuzz Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 i just finished shaping a neck where i was experimenting with this; i'll get some pics; the body was all done in a pin stripe fashion, so i decided to make the neck opposite too; i think it looks cool; but man, it is impoosible to make it look exactly right; i got purpleheart against the fingerboard under hard maple;no figure (thank god) even when all my straight edges and guides were dead on the top peice still seemed to look wanky; the cool parts about it; besides being different; it makes the middle (top) laminate taper by itself; the laminates dissapear under the headstock; which looks cool; oh another bad thing is the glue lines; when your carving such an oval(?)-esque type shape it gives alot more of an angle for glue lines to show there ugly head; i'll go get some pics if i remember Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I have done a horizontal laminate using ash and it seems to be fine. On my next project I will horizontal laminate again using a dark / light / dark combination I think that will look quite nice when its profilled Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 What are folks talking about when they say horizontal laminates? Like, laminates in the same plane as the fingerboard? Glue's not strongest in that direction, and the joint is taking on a lot of shear stress that's entirely absent (pretty much) in a 'traditional' laminated neck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weaponepsilon Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Is this what you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I've done a horizontally-laminated fretboard (both flatsawn) of ebony on padauk, and it is significantly more resistant to flex than a single one of either wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerb Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 If it's good enough for Benavente, it's good enough for anybody. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 What are folks talking about when they say horizontal laminates? Like, laminates in the same plane as the fingerboard? Glue's not strongest in that direction, and the joint is taking on a lot of shear stress that's entirely absent (pretty much) in a 'traditional' laminated neck. I agree with Mattia. I don't think anyone wants to hear that . So carry on. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaycee Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Is this what you mean? Thats not what I mean . As far as I know that is a vertical (the more popular )way to laminate. The way I will do my next neck is this : Imagine you have the guitar in a playable postiton, the bottom of the neck profile will be dark wood, the middle will be light wood and the fretboard will be dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Trepagny Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 linc luthier neck This neck should be realy strong since you have this kind of bridge effect; like a laminated aircraft floor. Good luck! Philippe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrikjan Posted October 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) linc luthier neck This neck should be realy strong since you have this kind of bridge effect; like a laminated aircraft floor. Good luck! Philippe That is exactly wht i mean wohoo i have found some one who does this I thought it impossible that no one used this design method .. but here we go .. now .. what are the pro's and teh cons .. Edited October 9, 2006 by hendrikjan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Personally, I would still think that vertically laminated pieces of wood would be stronger. For one, when the neck is strung up, you have the strings pulling perpendicular to the joint, creating a "peeling" effect, causing the actual glue joint to have to hold the neck together. Conversely, with vertically laminated necks, the tension is parallel to the glue joints, allowing the wood itself to support the neck, keeping the glue joints relatively stress-free. The other obvious drawback to horizontal laminates is that you would have to get your neck PERFECTLY symmetrical in order to look decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 Interesting concept! That has to look really cool. Grain orientation would still be very important though, moreso if the layers are thicker. I'd say give it go. Heck, I might just try it too. It's so non-traditional... Cool! What have you got to loose? Some time and some wood. That's how we all learn. The only other thing, besides the aforementioned symetry, is too many layers may turn it into sort of a playwood looking thing. That may not be bad though, just something to keep in mind. BTW, a proper glue bond is stronger than the surrounding wood. Laminates add strength when implemented properly. Have fun! -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
low end fuzz Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 that was my problem; i know im gonna be left with something; that could pass as 'perfect' but myself still see wavy type lines along the joining laminates; but dont get me wrong, they look cool; and you can have alot of fun with multi(multi,multi) laminates that dont turn out horizontally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 BTW, a proper glue bond is stronger than the surrounding wood. Laminates add strength when implemented properly. That just means that it will split along side the glue joint, rather than right at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 that was my problem; i know im gonna be left with something; that could pass as 'perfect' but myself still see wavy type lines along the joining laminates; What would those wavy lines be caused from? -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 that was my problem; i know im gonna be left with something; that could pass as 'perfect' but myself still see wavy type lines along the joining laminates; What would those wavy lines be caused from? -Doug I'm guessing just slight imperfections in the shape of the neck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 That just means that it will split along side the glue joint, rather than right at it. That's right. Same applies for any other use of wood in a neck. Splitting could occur. This horizontal lmainate might not yield a neck as stiff as a more traditional vertical lam. The test would be to make 2 blanks and stress test them. One is sure to flex more than the other. I wish I had more time for fun stuff like this! -Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
low end fuzz Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 yup; i didnt mean ''wavy lines" but not symetrical laminate 'tracks'/lines im an idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirapop Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 What are folks talking about when they say horizontal laminates? Like, laminates in the same plane as the fingerboard? Glue's not strongest in that direction, and the joint is taking on a lot of shear stress that's entirely absent (pretty much) in a 'traditional' laminated neck. Actually, glues are strongest in shear (where the parts want to slide against each other on the glued surface). They're weaker in tension (pulling perpendicular to the glued surface) and peeling. Well designed bonded joints and weldments transfer load in shear. But, yeah, a vertical laminate can have much less or no shear across the bondline. There's probably is going to be some, depending on where the bondline is relative to the tuners. The neck is getting pulled into a bowed shape, by the strings acting through tuners and where the string contacts the nut. If one of the vertical laminations is doesn't have a tuner in it pulling it toward the the bridge, the adjacent lamination that does have a tuner in it is going to pull it into the bowed shape... through the bondline in shear. The loading on a horizontal laminate bondline is probably less severe than the load on the bondline of scarf joint for a tilt back head. That bondline has more shear, over a smaller area, and a peeling component to the load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendrikjan Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 What are folks talking about when they say horizontal laminates? Like, laminates in the same plane as the fingerboard? Glue's not strongest in that direction, and the joint is taking on a lot of shear stress that's entirely absent (pretty much) in a 'traditional' laminated neck. Actually, glues are strongest in shear (where the parts want to slide against each other on the glued surface). They're weaker in tension (pulling perpendicular to the glued surface) and peeling. Well designed bonded joints and weldments transfer load in shear. But, yeah, a vertical laminate can have much less or no shear across the bondline. There's probably is going to be some, depending on where the bondline is relative to the tuners. The neck is getting pulled into a bowed shape, by the strings acting through tuners and where the string contacts the nut. If one of the vertical laminations is doesn't have a tuner in it pulling it toward the the bridge, the adjacent lamination that does have a tuner in it is going to pull it into the bowed shape... through the bondline in shear. The loading on a horizontal laminate bondline is probably less severe than the load on the bondline of scarf joint for a tilt back head. That bondline has more shear, over a smaller area, and a peeling component to the load. so is it a stronger construction, the horizontal laminate? or weaker... hmm I am a bit confused.. But I am sure going to try to build one that way sometime in the future .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord-of-the-strings Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 Pretty friggin' sure Doug knows what he's talking about when it comes to building necks, I'd take his advice seriously And it would be interesting to see it! Go for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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