Guitar Cnc Business Idea

[TechArt]

I've been thinking about getting into the biz of doing custom CNC work for guitar builders. Without saying too much, I work for a major guitar company doing exactly that...custom CNC guitar work.

If I could supply custom machined bodies, necks, & inlays...is that something you folks would be interested in? Pricewise, I could offer something for not drastically more than the off the shelf items you would get from Warmoth, etc..

Please let me know if you have any thoughts on this..

[prs man]

that all sound good for sure.

do you have space for the cnc and dust collection. and can you get the electric hook up you will need. do you know how to program it your self.

I work in the furniture shop and the dust collection thing is a must for a good one.

do you have any prices on tooling.I know for a fact that some of the tooling is not cheap.

if you could do it for around the same as warmoth man that would be awesome. I think you would have more work then you know what to do.

I wish you the best of luck

and let us know when your up and running

[GuitarGuy]

Honestly, not really. A body is probably the easiest part of building a guitar. The only reason one would want a cnc'd body is for production needs. But then having someone else build them makes the builder not really a custom builder.....kinda like OCC. Buy a bunch of parts and stick em together, not my idea of fun.

Inlay's are about the only thing i could see having a need for.

just my 0.02

Edited November 19, 2006 by GuitarGuy

[verhoevenc]

Thought one: Not many people are going to put much trust in you being that this is your first post, and that first post involved wanting to sell, not wanting to be a community member. ALSO, you show no examples of work, making trust even harder, and lastly, the non-disclosure, although I'm sure warranted by whoever your boss is, seems kinda sketch

Chris

[Guest AlexVDL]

.

[coolio49085]

If you did necks right, they would be much more accurate than handmade ones.

[TechArt]

I think all of those comments are right on the mark..and I should certainly apologize for making something biz related my first post as well...! I would not normally do that on a bullet board but if the idea moves forward, I plan to advertise on this board due to the # of hits that it gets, etc..(I've already requested advertising rates, etc.)

Pricewise, I could go as low as Warmoth and still make decent money as long as I wasn't making "ones and twos" for people...but then I would want to charge more for setups. Setup basically consists of modeling & surfacing work....for 2D features this is pretty simple..but things like a carved top surface can take some time and as such would be a pricier setup. The main advantage of doing CNC work on bodies would be for carved bodies. Flat top guitars can be made pretty efficiently with the right jigs, etc. Still, it would be very hard to consistently make wood parts within .002" by hand...and on features like neck pockets..this can make assembly easier. Additionally...since a lot of the resulting sound in an electric is so dependant on the final assembly & setup of the guitar...more consistent craftsmanship will lead to a more predictable sound quality.

Modeling carved surfaces with CAD is no problem - I have good experience with that. I also have good CAM experience & that would also not pose a problem.

Inlay & necks are another area where there are some real obvious benefits for builders to use CNC's.

If you look at the larger manufacturers out there such as Gibson, Fender, Taylor, & PRS - they are all using CNC. They'll do in 4 or 5 hours of CNC time what would take 50 hours of manual labor...and you get consistent accurate parts every time. That's not to shortchange the skill required to do this work manually....but you can't argue with CNC's in a production setting. I read that Ron Thorn article & he is right on.

Also, I would never disclose/use any work related stuff for this - that is completely unethical & is not how I work. We also have a lot of guys at work who make guitars & sell them on the side....the company has nothing in the handbook preventing this. They'd put it in there if they wanted to I'm sure..guess they figure it is more important that the workers are into the stuff...that's the best way to get a good product from 9 to 5.

Good stuff, & I hope it's not inappropriate to kick the idea around with everyone here.. An idea is all that it is right now - I do not have a CNC or the software right now. It's a good bit of dough to get rolling with that stuff...!

[rhoads56]

I do not have a CNC or the software right now. It's a good bit of dough to get rolling with that stuff...!

which is one very very VERY good reason why you will never be able to make money building "custom" necks at Warmoth prices. ESPECIALLY working on your own. Damn, you wont even break even, you'll be losing hand over fist!

That CNC has to run 8 hours a day to pay for itself... and you'll need to work 16 hours a day just to keep up with it (hand finishing, fretting, gluing, sanding, fret levelling, programming, ordering, rough machining... actually, make that 24 hours...

Feel free to prove me wrong though!!

On a hobby based site, how many necks do you think each individual member might want??

[jay5]

If you did necks right, they would be much more accurate than handmade ones.

First off, that's an innacurate assumption. Now, as far as the "custom CNC" question goes, you will never make a dime doing it for the hobbiest. Even if you were supremely talented at CAD/CAM you would be lucky to make a single dollar selling one body or neck at a time. The amount of time spent at a computer plus material cost and machine time would kill any potential profit immediately. What if you messed somthing up and didnt know until you cut? Now you're in the hole. Not to mention you have no equipment. The only way to make any money doing what you're talking about is doing CAD/CAM for small builders making the switch to CNC technology. Even then you will probably be hard pressed to find enough business to sustain yourself purely on guitar work. Don't forget that decent CAD/CAM packages will run you a couple g's mimimum.

[thegarehanman]

.002" accuracy is useless in terms of a guitar neck heel and neck pocket. Wood swells even more than this with just a change in temperature or humidity. Don't underestimate the speed and accuracy of a trained professional(not to say I'm a "trained professional").

Being somewhat versed in CNC work and manual machining, in the time it takes to model(in 3-d), setup, and machine a guitar body(even with a carved top), I could have the body cut out and carved. Which one do you think is cheaper to me? And honestly, if you use the time saving argument, if I have the time to design, order, and assemble guitar parts, I most likely can find the time to build said parts.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, just a realist. Now, if you can make 50 aluminum p90 base plates of my design for less than $7.50 a pop and with the same accuracy, than you've beaten the current place I'm looking at using and you're in business...but that's another story.

peace,

russ

PS

CNC is only really expensive if you want a big mill(any mill big enough to do guitar bodies definitely consitutes big) and really elaborate CAM software(basically, anything other than 2.5d). I've actually been looking at some small CAM capable mills lately in anticipation of some future endeavors.

Edited November 20, 2006 by thegarehanman

[rhoads56]

whats your employers name? If they have no problem with you doing work on the side, shouldnt be a problem to tell us who they are.

[TechArt]

More good points - thx for your comments.

A lot of the comments seem focused on doing the CAD/CAM work for 1 part only. For anything that is remotely time consuming, I would charge a reasonable setup charge in order to recoup the time I would spend doing that work. Additionally, my ideal customer would be the person or small shop that wants to make 10 guitars a month instead of 5 but doesn't have the capital for the human & equipment investment required to get into CNC...and that I would get this business every month. The main idea here is to program the machine once, and run the program many times. I'd be able to provide them a part cut to their specs...and all without adding any hours to their end of the deal. If it takes 40 hours of manual work to make a body & neck with custom inlays...and I am able to produce it in 4 or 5 hours of machining...then that should really have some value for the builder.

With regard to the accuracy comment - I agree 100% that it is possible for a neck pocket to move up to .005 or maybe even more in extreme cases. However...would you rather have .002" of slop + .005 of movement...or .020 of slop + .005 of wood movement?

.002" accuracy is useless in terms of a guitar neck heel and neck pocket. Wood swells even more than this with just a change in temperature or humidity. Don't underestimate the speed and accuracy of a trained professional(not to say I'm a "trained professional").

Being somewhat versed in CNC work and manual machining, in the time it takes to model(in 3-d), setup, and machine a guitar body(even with a carved top), I could have the body cut out and carved. Which one do you think is cheaper to me? And honestly, if you use the time saving argument, if I have the time to design, order, and assemble guitar parts, I most likely can find the time to build said parts.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, just a realist. Now, if you can make 50 aluminum p90 base plates of my design for less than $7.50 a pop and with the same accuracy, than you've beaten the current place I'm looking at using and you're in business...but that's another story.

peace,

russ

The biggest problem they would have is if I marketed work based on their reputation....that's the biggest no-no.

Sorry if that's a cop-out...I shouldn't have even mentioned it..

whats your employers name? If they have no problem with you doing work on the side, shouldnt be a problem to tell us who they are.

[thegarehanman]

However...would you rather have .002" of slop + .005 of movement...or .020 of slop + .005 of wood movement?

I hope that's not some sort of ambiguous way of implying something about all woodworking done by hand. If that's the case, you're in the wrong place. As for something being machined, I would expect .002" accuracy from it, so it's not even a question in my mind.

If you're looking to sell 10 bodies a month to individuals, you're most certainly in the wrong place. 99% of us build no more than a few guitars a year, and only for ourselves. The other 1% makes their money through quality and custom builds rather than quantity and standard models.

peace,

russ

[rhoads56]

A lot of the comments seem focused on doing the CAD/CAM work for 1 part only. For anything that is remotely time consuming, I would charge a reasonable setup charge in order to recoup the time I would spend doing that work.

... and then they'd see that quote, look at the four employees standing around and just get one of them to do it by hand, cause they can do that....

Additionally, my ideal customer would be the person or small shop that wants to make 10 guitars a month instead of 5 but doesn't have the capital for the human & equipment investment required to get into CNC...and that I would get this business every month.

You mean the guys that are using duplicarvers, VERY WELL MADE UNIVERSAL templates, etc etc etc??

I reckon, im THE biggest guitar company on here. Well, maybe not biggest, but certainly in the top five of CONTRIBUTING members (lets make it easy and say contributing is over five posts, ever).

I would love to build five guitars a month, let alone go from 5 to 10.

How many USA companies (thats who you need) make more than 5 guitars a month, have the retail ability to sell ten a month, and DONT already have the funds to invest in one more staff member (or train themselves), and lease a mid priced CNC??? IF YOU can make a living and pay the lease, then they can too, and they end up with a nested investment.

If it takes 40 hours of manual work to make a body & neck with custom inlays...and I am able to produce it in 4 or 5 hours of machining...then that should really have some value for the builder.

If you think you can cut the time it takes to build a guitar from 40 hours to 4-5, you are a dreamer. Sorry, just telling it how i see it.

You mentioned previously you really believe in the comments by Ron Thorn about CNC. I remember reading a VERY extensive thorough article he wrote pretty much saying that CNC work only saves them around 10 hours, out of a 80 hour build.

With regard to the accuracy comment - I agree 100% that it is possible for a neck pocket to move up to .005 or maybe even more in extreme cases. However...would you rather have .002" of slop + .005 of movement...or .020 of slop + .005 of wood movement?

Id rather have ZERO slop, and be able to fine tune the necks by hand when im about to assemble the parts. Wait a sec, thats exactly what i do now....

[thegarehanman]

I understand your goal in that statement Perry, but, honestly, when's the last time .002" made any difference to anything you've built? Seriously, egos asside, that's 1/500 of an inch. Or in terms of multiples of 4, that's .128/64ths of an inch. As far as woodworking is concerned, we both know that we can't attain that accuracy by hand. Better yet, we both know such accuracy is both unnecessary and excessive(in terms of instrument building). I'm just trying to be realistic about both sides of the argument here.

Man, that's just like me to go off on a tangent like that.

peace,

russ

Edited November 20, 2006 by thegarehanman

[fryovanni]

Really if you understand the costs and labor model. Than do your thing. There are other people doing this already, and I wouldn't mind having another quote for something I want done. Honestly what would any of us have to lose if you fail, and if you can make it happen great for us.

It does strike me as odd that you would be thinking about Warmoth retail pricing if you are wanting to deal in wholesale to even small builders. That would not be very realistic. That would be like a person thinking a company would pay $70 per. Mahogany body blank(at full retail rates) in lots of 100(not even close), and that would be a small builder model.

I know that I have seen a shop offer a couple "standard" model acoustic necks on another board to the membership. For no set up and $100 a pop pricing(Mahogany). Which is a pretty good deal(many members took the offer). For around $1000 they will set up the software and keep your design on record for $100 per. neck from there on out. Here is a link-click

Anyhow, I wish you luck. Sounds like you have some research and investing to do before you are going to be out there. When you have the equipment and are actually up and running. Maybe you could propose some different "standard" items, and see if there is interest.

Peace,Rich

Edited November 20, 2006 by fryovanni

[rhoads56]

I understand your goal in that statement Perry, but, honestly, when's the last time .002" made any difference to anything you've built? Seriously, egos asside, that's 1/500 of an inch. Or in terms of multiples of 4, that's .128/64ths of an inch. As far as woodworking is concerned, we both know that we can't attain that accuracy by hand. Better yet, we both know such accuracy is both unnecessary and excessive(in terms of instrument building). I'm just trying to be realistic about both sides of the argument here.

Man, that's just like me to go off on a tangent like that.

peace,

russ

Russ, what i was trying to say was.... CNC accuracy is irellevant and the option to fine tune is better, than taking a risk that the neck joint will be 0.00000000001" accurate. I think you missed the point. Damn, machine them .002" OVERSIZED if you have to, and sand to fit, rather than risk humidity changes (its is wood after all) as already mentioned by others.

[Drak]

If I may ask a simple question, how old are you?

[Doeringer]

I personally don't see much of a market for it, at least not as a stand alone. If you already have a CNC and just want another revenue stream to maximize the use of the CNC, it might be a good idea.

Look at Drak coming in with simple, to the point logic!

[erikbojerik]

Custom one-off inlays is where I'd be most interested, as a hobbiest builder building mainly for myself and friends. And I could knock out a proper DXF for what I want in no time; how much effort is it to go from DXF to CNC tool paths?

I've done this a couple of times with laser engravers/cutters, but these have a very simple driver which is very very similar to a printer driver for your PC, and it takes maybe a few minutes to go from DXF to cutting. However, the laser does not do all that great with MOP or ebony.

[thegarehanman]

[

Russ, what i was trying to say was.... CNC accuracy is irellevant and the option to fine tune is better, than taking a risk that the neck joint will be 0.00000000001" accurate. I think you missed the point. Damn, machine them .002" OVERSIZED if you have to, and sand to fit, rather than risk humidity changes (its is wood after all) as already mentioned by others.

Ah, completely clear, perry. My mistake. I agree with you 100% on that. Guess I wasn't in the interpretive mood last night,

[A different Brian.]

I gotta laugh a little. I have two CNCs and 13 years of self-employment experience. Let me give you a short answer to your original question. Forget about it. This is a mature market that is very price-sensitive. I don't even bother, and I have very little to lose.

[JohnRossitter]

Two things

1) Many of us would want very specific woods and laminations styles.

Would we have to pre laminate and ship to you?

2) You should open a general CNC shop, and offer services to a wide variety of consumers. That way you can afford to do guitar work.

[TechArt]

CNC vs. Manual

I always get a kick out of hearing opposing comments from the two types of guitar builders I've seen since I've been in this industry. There are the pro-CNC guys and the anti-CNC guys. The anti's would never use a CNC..and there is nothing you'll tell those guys that would make them want to use one. They're traditionalists, and damn fine craftsmen. The pro-CNC guys are the guys that want to be in the business.

In the end it's all about whatevers floats your boat - if you like building by hand, good for you - but be happy with the 1 guitar per month that you will be building. But if you want to increase production & make a more consistent product, then get into CNC.

Raw Materials

You could either supply materials or I could...either or.

Making CNC's work for you

If you buy a $250,000 CNC router, then yeah...you need to run it for 1 or 2 full shifts. If you buy an $80,000 router ...you probably have to run it for 1 shift to make it pay. But there are also a wide range of "starter" CNC's that range from $7k up to $80k...and a decent # of them will hold +/-.002..which is about the minimum I would use for precision work like inlay & neck pockets

Inlay CNC work:

It is very easy to take a DXF and turn it into G-Code for a CNC...it's a simple pocketing operation that you could set tool paths up for in probably about 5 or 10 minutes. Once you have the shape, it's equally easy to cut the pocket for the inlay...no sweat.

My age

...doesn't matter! I ain't some kid fresh out of school, and I ain't a geezer. 'Nuf said...

Market Comments

Everyone's comments with regard to the market for this type of work are really helpful. The comments about doing this type of work as side work may be spot on... The maturity of the guitar market is certainly also something to take into consideration. As you guys have pointed out...guys who make 1 or 2 guitars per year are not the right market.

This is something that is months off at best...I'll keep chewing on it for a while before I decide whether to make the investment. It would be cool to do my own thing...and if you can do that and afford to keep the lights on, so much the better!

[JohnRossitter]

Well you have a fundimental problem with custom builders, being that each guitar is different that the next. I don't think that a wholw lot of us are in business here, so it's just hard to justify the expense of paying someone to tool up and route a custom body.

Now what you can do it is start making your own body designs and necks that match and sell them. I really wish you the best of luck with your idea, and maybe one day I will want to do a run of 10 of a certain bass that I make....we can talk then