Can You Go Heelless With A Deep Set Tenon?

[fyb]

I was thinking of trying a deep set tenon joint (probably back to the bridge) on an upcoming project, and I was wondering if you could carve it to make it basically heelless? It's basically be like a neck through in the neck joint area (except for the small part of the body wood at the bottom of the neck mortise).

What do you think?

[Prostheta]

I can't see why not as long as you're not reducing the mechanical stability of the glue contact areas of the tenon and mortise.

[westhemann]

yup...i have done it several times

[fyb]

I can't see why not as long as you're not reducing the mechanical stability of the glue contact areas of the tenon and mortise.

Well, I figure that there should be plenty of glueing surface (certainly more than a standard set neck joint).

How deep do you think I should make the mortise? I'm thinking the body will be 1 3/4"

Thanks

[westhemann]

i always go 1 1/4" thick

[Mattia]

Done it frequently enough. I build with a stiff neck (carbon fibre rods), so that helps.

[Mickguard]

I don't think there's any issue at all.

My Melody Maker (and a lot of LP Jrs, I gather) are built in a similar way, that is, there is no tenon only the full width of the heel.

On my Melody Maker, the heel only extends about 2 inches (starts with the 19th fret) into the body--and only an inch or so where the sides of the body are thick enough to give it any real strength. It's only set about 18 mm deep into the body, maybe less (don't have my ruler handy, I'm eyeballing the guitar). And like I said, only the 22nd fret, and part of the 21st, have any real meat surrounding them.

I'm always bringing up this guitar because now that I know a little more about guitar construction, it always amazes me that this guitar seems to break all the rules--or at least all those learned opinions about what a neck joint should be like---and yet it's 41 years old now, still going strong...not only that, it has amazing natural sustain (i.e., unplugged), better than any other guitar I have.

[westhemann]

yeah i would not go quite that short on it...i always keep some meat at the upper horn where it really doesn't affect access.

[Marcovis]

I just did this to a LP project I am working on.

[brewu22]

I just did this to a LP project I am working on.

I would like to see more pictures of that guitar.

[Robert Irizarry]

I would like to see more pictures of that guitar.

+1. Nice work...

Regards,

Rob

[Marzocchi705]

On my paul that im building at the moment i have opted for a heelless design using a deep neck tennon, worked a treat.

(click to enlarge)

[fyb]

On my paul that im building at the moment i have opted for a heelless design using a deep neck tennon, worked a treat.

(click to enlarge)

Hey man, that's a beauty

[Mickguard]

Something that's been bothering me about this deep set tenon idea:

Once you've routed for your pickups, haven't you pretty much cut that tenon in two (or three)? Especially since people seem to favor humbuckers for these types of guitars --how much of that tenon wood is left once you've scooped out enough to fit the humbuckers?

Unless those tenons go a lot deeper than a normal neck?

[Prostheta]

I would hazard that you're correct there Mick. I suppose "deep set" neck tenons may well be deeper depthwise as well as into-the-body-wise. On the mockup bass I built, I created a "T" shaped tenon which dips almost as deep as the heel "to the outside world" and further up at the edges. That is as solid as anything even without glue :-D

[westhemann]

the tenon is isually about 1 1/4"-1 1/2" thicck at the heel on the ones i build if i plan on extending the heel past the neck pickup...my cavity depth on the neck pickup is about 1"

[Mattia]

Something that's been bothering me about this deep set tenon idea:

Once you've routed for your pickups, haven't you pretty much cut that tenon in two (or three)? Especially since people seem to favor humbuckers for these types of guitars --how much of that tenon wood is left once you've scooped out enough to fit the humbuckers?

Unless those tenons go a lot deeper than a normal neck?

A lot goes, yes. But if you make your tenon 1-1/4 deep, possibly more, and do a minimum of routing for humbuckers (they're not that thick), you can still have a fair amount of heft. I like doing it because I also use the extruding bit to line up maple tops (which get a matching pocket in them as well), and because the joinery is fun...

[westhemann]

well...the main reason i like to extnd past the neck ppickup on some guitars is that it surrounds the neck pickup in maple...because for clean tones i use the neck pickup...it makes the sound brighter on that pickup,and i like that.

if i am making the neck out of mahogany i don't bother...i just stop it at the pickup

[Prostheta]

Interesting take there Wes...

[westhemann]

well...it's just my reasoning in my head...i find the neck joint to be plenty rigid without the extension,so i only do it for sound.

hard to say if i amright...it's just that the neck pickup sounds sweeter on the ones i surround in maple...and i usde the same pickups every time