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A Few Questions About My Neck


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Ok so I've pretty much gathered all the details I need, but I just have a few questions I would like to ask.

1: For the fingerboard wood, I am going to use (duh da da da!) Cocobolo. I've heard that since it is very oily it can be difficult to glue, so my question is: what special care do I need to take in gluing (should I wipe it down with something?) and what type of glue is best? Titebond? Gorilla Glue?

Also, Cocobolo doesnt need a finish correct? I can just leave it as is?

2: I know that my main neck wood is going to be maple, but I want to have laminate strips in it. What are some cool woods for laminates that arn't to expensive and sound good? I'm looking at purple heart and wenge right now. How much impact on tone do laminates have?

3: Finally, (this relates to the maple) but I really love unfinished maple necks and so I was wondering what sort of oil you would reccomend to rub it down with.

Thanks a bunch :D

Fretboardninja

:D

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Hi FretboardNinja.

I'm sure you will hear many opinions on the topic, but I have made a few basses with coco fingerboards. I have used titebond glue on a 200 grit sanded and denatured alcohol cleaned surface. I have not had any slippage. Further I did not finish the coco with anything other than linseed oil.

Be sure you read about the safety hazards of cocobolo before you start working with it. There is a wood toxicity post pinned you should read if you have not done so already.

Best of luck...post pics

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Ok so I've pretty much gathered all the details I need, but I just have a few questions I would like to ask.

1: For the fingerboard wood, I am going to use (duh da da da!) Cocobolo. I've heard that since it is very oily it can be difficult to glue, so my question is: what special care do I need to take in gluing (should I wipe it down with something?) and what type of glue is best? Titebond? Gorilla Glue?

Also, Cocobolo doesnt need a finish correct? I can just leave it as is?

2: I know that my main neck wood is going to be maple, but I want to have laminate strips in it. What are some cool woods for laminates that arn't to expensive and sound good? I'm looking at purple heart and wenge right now. How much impact on tone do laminates have?

3: Finally, (this relates to the maple) but I really love unfinished maple necks and so I was wondering what sort of oil you would reccomend to rub it down with.

Thanks a bunch :D

Fretboardninja

:D

1. There was a thread on here about that, and it seamed that most people agreed that wiping it wasnt required. Second, I wouldnt use Gorila Glue for anything.. That stuffs insane, and takes forever to be 100%

Id recomend Titebond I for anything wood/wood and CA for anything else.

2. I like the look of wenge, but Padauk and purppleheart are prone to fading, so if your like me, it will be sitting against your couch.. and turn brown..

I like the look of ebony veneers and wenge the most, maybe bloodwood or somthing.

3. I plan on using tru-oil...

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I use epoxy glue for glueing fret board.

there is no water in epoxy as there is in tight bond.

my thought is to keep the neck as stright as can be.

I have used the epoxy on the last 4 neck and have not needed to ajust the truss rod at all.

all have turned out great.

with the cocobolo I have not had any trouble but I know some do with the dust.

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Wipe it down with Acetone before gluing. Titebond will do. Cocobolo wont need a finish, but it would certainly bring out the color of the wood.

(oiled with StewMac's fingerboard oil)

th_BassProject35.jpg

Click to enlarge!

The impact of tone from the laminates will noticeable, but it wont be greatly different. Any of the necks I have built with Purpleheart sound slightly brighter. I'd definitely suggest going for Purpleheart, it's very dense, durable, and doesn't cost a great deal.

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While it isn't necessary to wipe down most common fretboard woods before gluing, cocobolo CAN be much more oily. It completely depends on the particular piece you have whether you need to wipe it down. Wipe it off with acetone shortly before you glue it down with Titebond I. The acetone will dry very quickly, and will remove enough surface oil to prevent any problems. You can then leave it unfinished, or add some bore oil like any rosewood board.

Use Tru-Oil for the neck.

The neck laminates will make almost no difference if any. Choose what you like ... purpleheart will work great.

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1. There was a thread on here about that, and it seamed that most people agreed that wiping it wasnt required. Second, I wouldnt use Gorila Glue for anything.. That stuffs insane, and takes forever to be 100%

Id recomend Titebond I for anything wood/wood and CA for anything else.

2. I like the look of wenge, but Padauk and purppleheart are prone to fading, so if your like me, it will be sitting against your couch.. and turn brown..

I like the look of ebony veneers and wenge the most, maybe bloodwood or somthing.

3. I plan on using tru-oil...

What's wrong with Gorilla Glue?

That's what I use for scarf joints and fingerboards.

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gorilla glue foams and is very messy.

you should read up on epoxy,because in order to reach full strength,most epoxies require a glue line thick enoughto where it will be visible.you NEVER starve an epoxy joint.

titebond is perfect.i use titebond on all my neck laminates and my finished necks are straight...perfectly straight.

i do use epoxy sometimes for a neck joint...but not laminates.it makes a visible glue line,and if you squeeze out enough to make it visible,it makes a weak joint.

you know those rondo guitars everybody thinks are so wonderful?i have one at the house,and the fretboard started to seperate a month after i got it,so i puuled it off to see what the issue was,and i found that they used epoxy,and they had made 2 small trenches in the underside of the fretboard to create the bond epoxy needs,but the edges of the board were starved at the joint...which is why it started to seperate at the edges

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gorilla glue foams and is very messy.

As it dries it expands so yes, it does foam a little but for the strength it provides, I prefer it for key glue joints like the scarf and fretboard (especially exotic woods like cocobolo).

I use very little in the joints and the foaming is minimal and really not a concern for me.

:D

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titebond joints are stronger when properly done than gorilla glue joins.

the glue itself(polyeurethane)is stronger than titebond,but the bond created is not,and that is what matters.

woodworking 101, baby! :D

and yes...i have used them all...they all work,but titebond is king for wood/wood

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titebond joints are stronger when properly done than gorilla glue joins.

the glue itself(polyeurethane)is stronger than titebond,but the bond created is not,and that is what matters.

woodworking 101, baby! :D

and yes...i have used them all...they all work,but titebond is king for wood/wood

I find this interesting... Do you have any data to back this up? :D

I've never heard of this. I doubt that the Gorilla glue joint would seperate at the glue line.

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Found this article:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea.asp?id=1064

Two Exerpts:

"Shear strength is not polyurethane glue’s strongest feature," he says. "In end grain-to-end grain the stuff is incredible. It far outperforms (yellow glues) in end grain. If you coat both surfaces with polyurethane glue, I’ve seen it (the glue) migrate 2" into wood."

"Polyurethane glues stick well and hold odd materials, but they generally aren’t stronger than yellow glues," Zimmerman says. "Yellow glue makes a bond that is stronger than the wood. So while the polyurethane glue might actually be stronger, it doesn’t matter because the wood will always fail first. It’s not a stronger joint."

Hence my usage of Gorilla glue on Scarf Joints where there's more end grain (my intuition seemed correct)

Also, for tough wood like Cocobolo, I think its a better choice over Yellow Glue (Gut feeling)

:D

Edited by guitar2005
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Good luck removing an epoxied fingerboard if you ever have to do repairs on the neck. Regardless of which glue is stronger for scarf joints - it doesn't matter. You guys aren't building 12 string basses (assumption) that are going to have a considerable amount of string tension pressure. Get the glue joint right and you're fine.

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i had an entire post and lost it due to damn internet crap...eh :D

i think people are generally more impressed by the hype surrounding gorilla glue and the charm of the ape on the bottle than they are by the performance of the product itself.

yes it is decently strong,but in every guitar building application i use something else always works as well or better,with less cleanup.

to be honest,i despise gorilla glue...it DOES migrate into the grain far more than necessary,making an invisible glue line next to impossible...at one time causimng me to have to change my finishing plans on an alder bodied guitar from natural to opaque to hide it.you can't sand past it because it is so invasive.but i have no idea what your building standards are...maybe you like glue lines...but i want all mylaminates to be invisibly bonded except for the inevitable grain change.

anyway...your passages you quoted tell you the same thing i did...titebond's holding strength already surpasses the wood's strength.

but i do not use scarf joints...i find it hard to believe though that 2" of grain migration dods any good at all...by the way i doubt the grain migration is that much between maples.

most woodworkers are perfecvtly satisfied with alphetic resin and epoxies...good enough for me

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Couple Q & A's from the MIMF FAQ

Q. I've read that you should wipe the surface of rosewoods and other oily tropical woods with acetone or naptha right before you glue them. Should I prepare the joint this way before gluing?

A. The consensus of our most experienced members is no, you should not. It seems to make for a weaker joint. The reports we have of glue joint failure in rosewood or cocoblolo is that it generally occurs after treatment of this type.

Q. Do I have to use epoxy to glue rosewood and other oily tropical woods?

A. The consensus of our most experienced members is that Titebond and hot hide glue work just fine, but they caution that you should glue the fresh joint immediately, and not let the wood sit unglued after you plane your joint.

Note: Franklin recomends cleaning the surface. Which does contradict the MIMF. Personally I just plane and glue(fresh cut). No issues.

As far as which glue...

MIMF FAQ says this-

Q. What's the best glue?

A. There's no single "best" glue, but there are several that have proven themselves over the years, and in the case of hide glue, over centuries. Our recommendations are BRAND-NAME/PRODUCT SPECIFIC where applicable. Not all glues are created equal so don't assume that any glue readily available to you is good enough for your instrument - different formulations greatly affect quality, especially with yellow glues and epoxies. Some glues have a shelf-life and will expire, yellow glues especially should be fresh. Here's a quick guide to the strengths and weaknesses of the most popular glues. Note that there's a continuing emphasis on disassembly. For electric guitars, set necks (glued-in), as found on most Gibsons, are often disassembled for repair, replacement, or refinishing. Fingerboards need to be removed in order to replace broken truss rods or just because they're worn out. Acoustic guitars also require neck removal and fingerboard replacement, but repairs may require removal of the bridge, top, or back of a guitar as well. Some future repair person will either bless you or curse you based on your choice of glues.

GLUE PRO CON

Hide glue Traditional instrument builders' choice. Very strong, can be disassembled for repair. Invisible joints with good woodworking technique. Dry granules must be mixed with water, heated, then kept at a steady temperature. There is a learning curve.

Premixed liquid hide glue Convenient Weaker than fresh-mixed hide glue. Not recommended for lutherie.

Titebond Original

Elmer's Probond Yellow Glue

(PVA, Aliphatic Resin glue) Convenient, strong, easy to use over a wide range of temperatures More difficult to disassemble/repair than hide glue. Oily/resinous woods (most tropicals) may require special preparation. Some joints, such as neck scarf joints, may creep over time, one year shelf life.

Titebond II, Titebond III Waterproof (II), longer open time (III) Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard.

Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Glue Low chilling temperature Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard.

Plastic Resin/Urea Formaldehyde/UF

Cascamite seems to be the most popular brand Strong bond, unlimited shelf life of powder, dries hard. Excellent for lamination. Light tan color may show line when joining light woods. Powder is an irritant/sensitizer. Difficult to disassemble.

Epoxy Strong bonds, can be used clear or with fillers/wood flour. Best for joining dissimilar materials such as wood and metal, works well on oily tropical woods. May break down under heat. Some epoxies are waxy, potentially deadening instrument resonance.

Polyurethane glue ("Gorilla" is the most readily available brand but our members don't like it, they prefer "Probond.") Convenient, strong. Gap-filling properties. Stains skin, gap-filling foam is weak. Disassembly is difficult. Limited shelf life.

Cyanoacrylate/CA/Krazy/Super glue Very fast bonding, dries hard and clear. Available in various consistencies. Good for strengthening porous woods. Good for repairing some clear finishes. Low shear strength. Becomes brittle and releases under heat. May destroy some finishes. Reacts with some metals. Easily attaches fingers to objects under construction and to one another. Fumes are an eye irritant.

Wes is spot on. I personally would never use Gorilla glue for a scarf joint or to attach a fretboard. I use Titebond Original(necks,bodies, laminates-80% of all my joints), Hot Hide Glue(soundboards, bracing, acoustic bridges-15% of my joints), CA(details and spot fills), or Epoxy(very limited use).

Peace,Rich

P.S. Rememeber a glue joint needs to stand the test of time. Most glue will hold for a couple years(it as about how it holds 5,10,20 years down the road :D )

Edited by fryovanni
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to be honest,i despise gorilla glue...it DOES migrate into the grain far more than necessary,making an invisible glue line next to impossible...at one time causimng me to have to change my finishing plans on an alder bodied guitar from natural to opaque to hide it.you can't sand past it because it is so invasive.but i have no idea what your building standards are...maybe you like glue lines...but i want all mylaminates to be invisibly bonded except for the inevitable grain change.

Haven't had that problem:

202154714.jpg

The scarf is Gorilla glue.

The veneers are yellow glue (The correct glue for this application)

I can't see a glue line in the scarf, unless you've got better eyes than I do :D

Personal preference is fine but I really don't see what the problem is with Gorilla Glue for certain applications where its performance is superior to Yellow glue.

P.S. Rememeber a glue joint needs to stand the test of time. Most glue will hold for a couple years(it as about how it holds 5,10,20 years down the road :D )

Are you implying that Yellow glue lasts longer? I've never heard of a proper glue joint failing using good glues.

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that's maple to maple.if you actually read the posts instead of preparing your argument you will see that i wrote

.by the way i doubt the grain migration is that much between maples.

so go ahead.i really don't care what you use but the truth is titebond is a superior glue for neck laminates..

which,by the way,is what the poster asked.

but...you should know that it looks like you have 2 glue lines at the scarf in that picture..was your headstock piece too thin or something?

and yes...that is what in woodworking is called a visible glueline.in that picture i can clearly see the yellowish brown of the poly glue? i guess it is...

but your woodworking looks fine.it is well joined mechanically speaking...unless the laminated piece next to the scarf joint is from low clamping pressure?

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Q. I've read that you should wipe the surface of rosewoods and other oily tropical woods with acetone or naptha right before you glue them. Should I prepare the joint this way before gluing?

A. The consensus of our most experienced members is no, you should not. It seems to make for a weaker joint. The reports we have of glue joint failure in rosewood or cocoblolo is that it generally occurs after treatment of this type.

Certainly depends on the amount of oil in the board. The fingerboard I recieved from LMII was very oily, it took a great deal of time to radius because the sandpaper clogged after only a few passes. I tried some Cocobolo from my local hardwood store and didn't have a problem with any of it. It never clogged the sandpaper period.

Results will always vary, wood certainly does.

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to be honest,i despise gorilla glue...it DOES migrate into the grain far more than necessary,making an invisible glue line next to impossible...at one time causimng me to have to change my finishing plans on an alder bodied guitar from natural to opaque to hide it.you can't sand past it because it is so invasive.but i have no idea what your building standards are...maybe you like glue lines...but i want all mylaminates to be invisibly bonded except for the inevitable grain change.

...by the way i doubt the grain migration is that much between maples.

... Later that day...

that's maple to maple.if you actually read the posts instead of preparing your argument you will see that i wrote

:D

Hey, you said you didn't think that Gorilla glue seeped into maple that much- The picture simply shows that it doesn't. That's all - I wasn't "preparing" my arguments. simply trying to understand and show real applications of the glue. We all agree here. I'm on your side here! :D

but...you should know that it looks like you have 2 glue lines at the scarf in that picture..was your headstock piece too thin or something?

and yes...that is what in woodworking is called a visible glueline.in that picture i can clearly see the yellowish brown of the poly glue? i guess it is...

Actually, its a veneer in the front and the back. The front is lacewood and the back is birdseye maple which is a slightly different hue from the main headstock maple. All veneers were glued with Yellow glue, so no, that yellowish brown is not the poly glue. The birdseye veneer to rock maple joint could have been better, I guess but I think its fine as is, especially considering how warped it was when I got it.

The Gorilla glue was used between the darker maple and the veneered headstock. I don't see a glue line there.

For neck laminates, yes, I would use yellow glue. I only wanted to understand why Gorilla glue was to be avoided, because in my experience, it has its applications, that's all. end of story.

so go ahead.i really don't care what you use but the truth is titebond is a superior glue for neck laminates..

I think you're taking all of this a little too personal. I agree with you. I only suggested that Gorilla is better for a scarf joint because of the end grain. In the end, you do what feels right for you. I'm sure that Yellow glue would work as well.

Edited by guitar2005
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no...not personal..sometimes my writing just seems abrupt because i don't really take much time to sound all friendly all the time,but all is good.

i don't mean to suggest your work looks bad...it is very nice...i was just curious about the extra glueline in a strange place..it's probably only visible because of the warped piece you were working with i am sure

i only asked because i once bandsawed my headstock profile and the blade went bad halfway through the cut(cheap blade) and started cupping,so i had to plane it and add a laminate to get back to thickness.

the piece the poly migrated into on me was alder...it wasn't too horrible,but it was enough to make the joint visible,and it depressed me for days,so i never used it again for that.

my problem is that i am always trying to build the "world's most perfect metal guitar" or something...i just have this idea in my head about how everything should be to make that "perfect" instrument,and when something lets me down consistently the way poly glue does,i just put it on "MY LIST" of things i hate

you follow me?i have already put a lot of things on my list that suck on a metal guitar...would you like to hear my thoughts?you would love to?oh good,well then of course i will...

1) first and foremost wood selection...clear straight grained pieces of alder and mahogany for the body,mahogany or maple for the neck,ebony or pau ferro

for the fingerboard...all of these items listed in this rule are thrown out the window as soon as a gorgeous piece of exotic shows up in my life..then there

are no wood selection rules .you can shorten this to just say "good wood"

2) glue choice...titebond for everything except sometimes epoxy for a set neck joint...ca for inlays and side dots

3)pickups hang from metal pickup rings except for sometimes the neck pickup will be directly mounted to the wood underneath it with no ring at all

bridge pickup is always kept seperate from the body wood..i feel it makes it too "whoomphy" hehe

4)always neck through or set neck.bolt on has no place in a metal guitar that i will use.bolt on necks are for blues and country

5)always tone pros hardware for fixed bridge,for a trem always an original floyd(this rule may change upon review of the kahler or just because i feel like

using one of the kickass ibanez floaters...nobody makes a trem like those guys....they are always thinking over there in japan)

6)ss fretwire...always and forever..every since perry sent me some of the premium stuff he gets..."i HIGHLY reccomend it if you have the means"

7)finish..i have no opinion...except that it needs to be hard.i am always trying new stuff here

8)all these rules mean nothing and are subject to change on a whim...so you just wasted the last 2 minutes of your life...congrats

anyway...you can clearly see that i am,in fact,insane...so now you can see why you should just back away sloowly from the computer,go roll up in your blankets,and whimper very,very softly while you hope you never have to read my meanderings again..or something :D

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Jon, I don't really take issue with cleaning the surface(as I noted Franklin recommends it). Personally I don't leach the surfaces, and have never had a problem, but I personally would not hesitate if I felt it needed it.

Guitar2005-

QUOTE(fryovanni @ Dec 9 2006, 12:36 PM)

P.S. Rememeber a glue joint needs to stand the test of time. Most glue will hold for a couple years(it as about how it holds 5,10,20 years down the road )

Are you implying that Yellow glue lasts longer? I've never heard of a proper glue joint failing using good glues.

I copied the recommendations from the MIMF FAQ. Where did you get the idea I said Yellow glue lasts longer? If you read the FAQ-

Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Glue Low chilling temperature Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard
. I would assume when you say Yellow glue you are talking about Titebond original or Elmers Probond Yellow. As far as glues failing. Yes, they can if the glue is the wrong glue for the application. Some glues take heat better than others.Some have creep and can potentially lead to failure(acoustic bridge...). Some glues can fill gaps with good strength, and some are very weak in gap filling applications. Some are weak in sheer. Some glues are capable off bonding to metal, shell etc.. some not. There are also finishing considerations(some glues are not compatable with certain finishes). Some glues will most definately wick into grain and some do not(CA wicks and Hot Hide does not).

My comment was meant exactly as I stated. You need glue joints to last for a very long time. I don't use a glue unless I am familiar with it, and it has a track record(that is my personal opinion). As an example... Titebond 2 or 3 do not perform as well as the original for my guitars. Most woodworkers would not have issue with these "higher perfomance" glues, but they have the same requirements as luthiers.

Now before you take this in any other way than matter of fact and just my opinion. I don't care what glue you use :D . I really don't take issue or care how you build guitars :D . It honestly makes no difference to me B) .

Peace,Rich

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I copied the recommendations from the MIMF FAQ. Where did you get the idea I said Yellow glue lasts longer? If you read the FAQ-

Elmer's Yellow Carpenter's Glue Low chilling temperature Not recommended for lutherie, doesn't dry hard

I missed that part and I didn't want to imply anything which is why I asked. I don't use Elmer's products unless I'm helping the kids with glueing paper.

I would assume when you say Yellow glue you are talking about Titebond original or Elmers Probond Yellow. As far as glues failing. Yes, they can if the glue is the wrong glue for the application. Some glues take heat better than others.Some have creep and can potentially lead to failure(acoustic bridge...). Some glues can fill gaps with good strength, and some are very weak in gap filling applications. Some are weak in sheer. Some glues are capable off bonding to metal, shell etc.. some not. There are also finishing considerations(some glues are not compatable with certain finishes). Some glues will most definately wick into grain and some do not(CA wicks and Hot Hide does not).

Now before you take this in any other way than matter of fact and just my opinion. I don't care what glue you use :D . I really don't take issue or care how you build guitars B) . It honestly makes no difference to me :D .

I'm using up the last couple of ounces of Lepage Carpenter's glue. So no, right now, I don't use titebond but I might try it when my bottle of Lepage's runs out.

I have lots of experience with LePage's, it bonds very well (not a single failure in 10 years of woodworking) with it and it has excellent shelf life.

Oh... and thanks for not caring. :D

Edited by guitar2005
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