Would A Sustainer Make Sense For This Project?

[zionstrat]

I am planing to build a hollow body in the summer that will have as little sustain as possible- There are many times I want to do complex rhythm patterns that are simply impossible even on a strat, and I'm very excited about that aspect of the guitar.

But it would be useless for lead and the sustainer thread got me thinking about the idea of working a sustainer into the plans. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the following. Please forgive the stupidity as I have just enough electronics to wire, not to understand the depths of 99.9% of that thread-

1. I'm assuming that I would be able to get ebow type sounds even on a low sustain guitar.

2. I doubt this is possible, but is there a way to control the intensity of the effect and could this restore any of the 'lost' sustain more like a 'regular' guitar? Again, I doubt it, but if just a small amount of sustaner was added, is it possible that it would cause the guitar to behave more as if it had more average sustain? I'm expecting this will not work because I've never found anything like this with an ebow..you either get tons of sustain and have to use lots of muted techniques, or I get nothing. I've never found a traditional guitar with a little more sustain mode.

3. It sounds like a mid position driver won't work, which would force me to put my driver north or south of the neck pup- Are there any pluses or negatives on either direction? And does the sustainer have to be off when using the neck pup?

4. Is the sustainer thread far enough along that someone could go back and 'kit' the whole thing? It sounds like there is so much variability that this is unlikely, but if I'm missing something I would sure love the 'here's how to make this thing for dummies' version.

5. You may end up telling me that I would be better of considering one of the currently produced sustainers and I would appreciate any thoughts based on the project I've described-

Thanks in advance!

[zionstrat]

Oh yeah, one other thought-

For rhythm purposes I was planning on going with bright pups, but I'm concerned that a sustained, bright bridge pup may be too bright for lead. If I understand correctly, most designs use the bridge pup to 'see' the signal that is then emitted by the driver (sorry I'm sure I'm messing up the terminology)-

But is it possible to then 'monitor' a pup that's in another position? It sounds like the neck pup is our of the question due to RF. But is it possible to use a mid position pup as the sound source? In other words, if I had a relatively dark mid position pup that was creating the sound going to the amp, could that work with the bridge pup as the source for the sustainer?

[Odin]

3. The sustainer dont need to be off when using the neck pup, but the sound of youre pup wont be as good as it will be with sus turned off. At least thats the way it works on my guitar.

[spazzyone]

1. yes

2. sorta but it wont be exactly the same

3. for the most part it works best in the neck pos. and no you can't use the neck at the same time

4. that person would be PSW Pete as he has the most info on this (he started that huge thread)

and im sure he will answer this post too

5. yes and no. it depends on what you want. if you want a no hassle drop in then just buy one

if you have the skill and patience then build your own

Col has done wonders on cicuit design and has posted it very unselflishly<-spell check that

and it seems to work good

[zionstrat]

Guys-

Thanks so much for the input! I really would like to build my own since I'm already building the guitar, but there are more variables right now than I can deal with. I could build the ciruit board that seems to be the most recent develeopment, however I would have no idea how to 'tune' it, and I'm still very confused about all of the options for drivers, how to best integrate this with 'regular' wiring, etc.

One thing I like about this option is not having to use the forced pup combinations that seem to be required with the products on the market. I almost always have something interesting in the cicuit and would definately try different combinations if I knew that I could get this to work fairly well-

So here's a big request to Pete, Col, or anyone who takes pitty on those of us who can barely follow a schematic... A simple primer that sums all of this up with a few vairiables, would be really, really appreciated!

Thanks again!

Michael

Edited December 11, 2006 by zionstrat

[spazzyone]

The primer is 151 pages long......HA.HA

[zionstrat]

ha- yes that's the problem:) Too much developmental detail and impossible for someone like me to understand the state of thinking. The original primer was good but, things have changed so much since it was written.

It does sound like some people were able to keep their middle pup in play and this is one of the issues that would be crucial to me.. ie can I use the bridge pup to drive the sustainer in a neck position but use the middle pup as the output to the jack?

I'm still reading and appreciate all of the input-

[custom22]

Alright, what i suggest is...

Buy the components and a breadboard and build the sustainer circuit to the best of your ablility. Just make sure the electrolytic capacitors are in the right direction or they will blow up.

As you go along, ask questions and troubleshoot. Use a small speaker with a guitar to test if its working. You will probably need to ask about biasing when you get to that.

This is the path I'm on, and i think its better than just following the directions because you actually gain understanding of the whole thing.

I wish i had used a breadboard instead of soldering, cuz i definately made some mistakes that were hard to correct.

Hope this helps.

[psw]

Very busy right now...somewhere in there I did sum up the thread, but it is not the thread so much that you are needing but advice...that too will be given on the main thread...

I will reply though (probably at length when I have more time about your options...)

Anyway, what caught my eye about your post was this...

I am planing to build a hollow body in the summer that will have as little sustain as possible- There are many times I want to do complex rhythm patterns that are simply impossible even on a strat, and I'm very excited about that aspect of the guitar.

This is exactly how I was thinking. My sustainer guitar is a very cheap, very bright maple fretboard model that is almost entirely hollow . In many ways I beleive this is an ideal place for the device, I have tried it on guitars like Les Pauls with a lot of natural sustain and was not at all so pleased with the results. Part of my guitars sound is that the notes die away to be replaced by a bloom of increasing volume and intensity as the sustainer takes over. A very sustainy guitar does not quite get this as there is not enough time for a note to die and be reborn in this way...

Anyway...must sleep, so I am off for now... hope that serves as some encouragement and gives other's some food for thought...

More practical advice from me will have to wait... I am assumeing you have seen the tutorial, pictorial and sound threads...perhaps someone could link them for you, they may be a bit clearer as a starter...

I always advise people not to try and read through the thread...The Sustainer Ideas thread is a unique phenomenon in of itself now...not a "how to" but an open conversation and development tool. People interested in the internet or studying the way things could be headed could well be interested in studying it socialogically...make an interesting school project, or even higher...just a thought (do people still study sociology? They should as new technologies offer some amazing possibilites with some far reaching social and economic implications...

anyway...must be very sleepy as I am begining to ramble more than usual...just came off of a 12 hour shift after only 4 hours sleep between the last one...six hours to the next...no wonder I burnt out!!!!

pete

[JTech]

If you are really tied up with other stuff maybe you can try this out.

Groove Tube Fat Finger Guitar Sustain Enhancer not really expensive.

I'm not really sure if this will be any good for your situation as i don't own 1

but i just wanted to help.

goodluck

[zionstrat]

Thanks Pete! Good info adn glad to hear that the idea of increasing sustain of a low sustain guitar makes sense- I'm planning a true hollowbody in LP DC shape and thinking thick maple top and back. I'll have a neck block and frame down to a tail block, but no centerblock- So the mass will mainly be in the top and back, the core should mainly be air, and if I seal it really well, I'm hoping to get as low as banjo sustain if I'm lucky.

I know that with a non-hex pup I cant really dial in sustain that would be even acrros the strings- Otherwise it would be fun to have sustain settings of banjo, rick, strat, SG and LP:) Still reading as I think I will go ahead and build the circuit now, but still have big questions about how to build the proper driver.

Jtech- That's a great way to increase sustain, but I'm looking electronic to see if I can dial in a given amount-

Thanks again all!

Michael

[psw]

it would be fun to have sustain settings of banjo, rick, strat, SG and LP:)

I'd suggest building it and testing it on a guitar to see if it is quite what you want. The device works on feedback so is not a natural sustain and will not sustain chords really (you can play them but the sustain is mostly on the lower strings) as you do seem to understand. Of course for lead work, the note played is the lowest string, so it works well.

For the effect of multi instruments the Variaxe is the way to go, but then it doesn't do infinite sustain...

Anyway, join in on the Sustainer Thread and the guys there will guide you through the driver and such to get the device going...it certainly is a fun device and I understand the direction you are aiming for...

Welcome aboard... pete

[zionstrat]

Yep, variaxe does this well and it's fallback in case my project turns out differetly than I hoped- This design will have an incredible amount of empty space, I'll be using a piezo bridge, and one day someone is bound to make a variaxe like mod- So if I cant get the sustain variation I'm after non-modeling, I expect I can always instal a variaxe like board one of these days-

Sidebar- The first VG8s had guitar modeling so we know Roland's been down that path and I wonder why no one has yet offered a guitar modeling circuit board yet?

Thanks again and see you on the sustainer thread!

m