Putting Decal On Nitro Finished Neck?

[GuitarMaestro]

Hi there!

I have a new neck finished in high gloss nitro and a waterslide decal I want to apply to it. The neck was really expensive and the result has to look pro, therefore I need advice from someone who has expirience with decals.

I have two questions:

1. Should I put the decal on and spray a new clear coat over the whole front of the peghead or would it be better to carefully put a gloss finish only over the decal (and a little arround it) with a brush? I would preffer to mess with the original finish as less as possible....

2. What would be the best paint to use? A nitro-based laquer? Or something that will not react with the existing nitro finish....

Thanks in advance,

MK!

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks for your answer. I guess you applied some more decals so far, so I maybe you know if there really are decals that do not work with nitro-finishes.

Mine is from axesrus and later discovered that they recommend to only put a water based laquer over it. Should I take that serious?

I bet it works with nitro as well and they want to stay clear of people that complain because they ruined their decal with the wrong laquer. They included a test piece, so I'll definately try it with that first.

Seeing that you live in Europe as well....do you know if there is a company here that sells nitro in spray cans?

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks alot. Those 2 posts really helped me ALOT. What's the reason that you always spray over the whole peghead? I guess it's because a fine mist of finish cannot be applied to the decal with a brush?

Otherwise I would preffer to just put some coats of nitro over the decal with a brush. If this is done right it should look like it was under the original finish, because the finish over the decal looks a little different anway, even if it is one coat I think.

Another thing I wonder: Is there any risk in simply putting new nitro coats over the existing nitro finish? The thing is I dont know what kind/brand/etc. of nitro they used to finish the neck and I fear it might come to an ugly reaction if the nitro I put over it is somehow not compatible with the one they used. Or is nitro=nitro? Did you ever put nitro coats over existing finishes?

P.s.: Clou is a good tip. I already knew they make nitro, but did not consider them because in Germany Clou does not have a real reputation when it comes to this kind of stuff. Most stores only carry their dirt cheap beginner level stuff....

[Batfink]

Nitro cellulose should not present any compatibilty problems - although it's always an idea to try a small section (heel or under the truss rod cover) just to check. You don't have to spray it, just spray a tiny little amount into the paint cap and apply with brush / cotton bud / finger or whatever just to be safe. Do heed Alex's point about dust coats, this is a very good point and if you go straight ahead with a heavy coat first you will either have the ink run as Alex said or the transfer can shrivel up as the clear try's to evaporate.

jem

[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks for the answer! Good to hear that I dont have to expect trouble with mixing nitro finishes. I would have tried it on an invisible area of the neck anyway, but it's still good to know what to expect.

You don't have to spray it, just spray a tiny little amount into the paint cap and apply with brush / cotton bud / finger or whatever just to be safe.

The question is if it is possible to put a dust/mist coat on the decal with a brush. With a spray you can do that easily, but with a brush you can only do a thin coat but it will always be a coat that covers the whole surface and thats maybe too much already?

[Batfink]

To be honest i wouldn't know about brushing it on, i've never tried but would be cautious that it'll be a bit 'heavy' so to speak - hmmmmm, one of those things i suppose you've got to bite the bullet over and just go for it (or not) and hope for the best.

Anyone have any 'brushing' experience out there

Jem

[GuitarMaestro]

Luckily they sold me small sample decal. If I decide for the brushing method I will let you guys know how it turned out. I dont want to refinish the whole headstock just for the decal if I dont have to. Maybe someone else tried it already? AlexVDL?

[Setch]

IMO brushing is likely to ruin it. The issue is the solvents which soften the ink on the decal, and avoiding disturbing the ink until the solvents have gone, With a heavy coat of lacquer, the ink is softened by the solvents, and then lifted by the fluid nature of the coat over it. That's why a dusting works - there's no tendecny to lift the ink, so it can cure without being disturbed. FAter a few mistings the ink is protected by a layers of lacquer, so you can start to use heavier coats. Be aware, an overheavy coats can still damage the decal, becasue it could potentially resoften the mist coats.

With a brush, you'll soften the ink with lacquer, *and* drag a brush over it, which will almost certainly smudge the ink. I can't see anyway around the misting step.

Recoating the headstock is not big deal, and you have to do it if you wan the decal to be invisible. The decal has a thickness, albeit a very small one, and you must match that thickness with coats of nitro over the rest of the headstock, or the edges of the decal will show.. There is a good chance the decal will show after a while anyway, because the nitro will continue to shrink after the decal has stabilised.

[GuitarMaestro]

Excellent post Setch. Your argumentation is spot on. Thinking about it I will definately recoat the whole headstock now. I wanted to avoid that because I never painted the guitars I built myself so far and have no expirience in that field. But I guess finishing a headstock with nitro should not be that difficult. Is there any disadvantage in using nitro from spray cans for that? I have access to compressor + spray gun, but I would rather go for the simplicity of a spray can....

[Setch]

Nitro from a gun is better, because it has a greater percentage of solids, so it builds faster and shrinks less. THis an advantage when trying to 'bury' a decal in nitro,

[GuitarMaestro]

Ok....I think thats no big enough advantage for me to clean the gun 10 times (after each coat), etc.

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[Melvyn Hiscock]

Look at an old Fender, the decal is over the top of the finish. This is because nitro is NOT compatible with decals and they will crinkle and lift if you put too much one (been there, done that).

Leo's genius was in making things simple so rather than have to mess around covering the decal in stages he just put it on the outside.

When you put a sealing coat (and preferably two or three) over the decal these need to be dusted on so they are almost dry. Putting a wet coat on CAN lift them.

HTH

MH

[Mike Navarro]

Hello Guitar Maestro, in my shop in one of my models I use water decal for the logo, no matter what kind of laquer you'll use, the key is spray just a mist over de decal, wait 2 hours and apply a second mist coat to lock the decal, then give a 10 hour rest to apply the thicks coats, the amount of top coats depends the tipe of laquer you will apply, Urethane laquer is the easy one because gives more thickness per coat, so thats mean maybe 2 top coats, if you dont have a spray gun, you can use a bottle/can touchup spray that you can find in any autobody piant shop, this is a can with a bottle in the bottom that you can fill with any paint or laquer, after you apply each coat, you will clean it filling with thinner and shooting the thinner for 10 seconds, then keep the bottle fill with thinner a take the spray cap for one hour sumerge in the thiner. Any cuestion you can write me to Guitarzonepr.com. Att Mike Navarro

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[Melvyn Hiscock]

Look at an old Fender, the decal is over the top of the finish. This is because nitro is NOT compatible with decals and they will crinkle and lift if you put too much one (been there, done that).

Leo's genius was in making things simple so rather than have to mess around covering the decal in stages he just put it on the outside.

When you put a sealing coat (and preferably two or three) over the decal these need to be dusted on so they are almost dry. Putting a wet coat on CAN lift them.

HTH

MH

That's what I already said

Almost, there is a world of difference between a thin coat and a dust coat. If the guy hasn't done it before and puts anything more than a light dusting then it can crinkle. I just thought it needed clarifying. The stuff needs to go on as dry as possible, like Mike Bavarro has said.

[GuitarMaestro]

Thanks for your answers. It's always good to hear from several people that this works.

@Mike: I have a real spray gun in my shop here. I'll buy a nitro spray can though, because I dont want to go through cleaning the gun after every coat (I guess I will have to do 8+) and I dont see an advantage in using the gun for finishing a small area like the peghead front.

@Melvyn: I already thought about doing it the old Fender way, but it looks not good to me and the decal was way to expensive to not protect it with a finish.....

Are you THE Melvyn that wrote "Make Your Own Electric Guitar"? If so I have bought that book some years ago and is EXCELLENT.

[Guest AlexVDL]

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[Mike Navarro]

Sorry Guitar Maestro! the alternatives I gave you was based in a high percent of the people post here are musicians with a personal proyect, When I started post, I placed alternatives as the person was a luthier to find out that when they wrote me back, not only the didn't have an idea what I was talking about because the were only people witn own proyects, so thats why I give solutions more "Friendly user" in case this person dosn't have the skill or equipment to do the job, normally, what I post in this cases is not what I do professionaly in my shop, I have 22 years making custom guitars professionaly, and in my first years all my painting work was based in nitro, theres a lot of theorys you will read around in the net or books, and thats ok, but by my years of experience, I am not agree with a lot of mits about woods, paint etc. All the time my opinion is based in empiric information working in my shop and not based in what I read, I think 22 years of experiment teach a lot. In my shop almoust I don't do anything as they way I learned in seminarys, text books or videos, thats what they call "trade secrets" and when I post a way to do something, not necesary is the way I do it in the shop, problably it's the way I did it 5 or 10 years ago, but, sometimes, is a better way as I learned 22 years ago, when you tell a "trade scret", theres anymore a trade secret! But in good faith I post one more option apart the other greats posts guys here place to give another one! Normally, I don't read the post other placed as an answer of a cuestion cause I'm short of time because my guitar work (10 to 12 hours daily) and I post when I dinner for 15 minutes, so, I don't know if I repeat an alternative or not, doesn't matter, If I repeat, what I do is reforce what someone else said, if I don't, im give a different another option, the important thing is the genuine wish to help. Its allways a pleasure being here with you guys! Mike Navarro- Guitarzonepr.com

One of my guitars headstock on nitrocellulose lacker with a water decal

Look at an old Fender, the decal is over the top of the finish. This is because nitro is NOT compatible with decals and they will crinkle and lift if you put too much one (been there, done that).

Leo's genius was in making things simple so rather than have to mess around covering the decal in stages he just put it on the outside.

When you put a sealing coat (and preferably two or three) over the decal these need to be dusted on so they are almost dry. Putting a wet coat on CAN lift them.

HTH

MH

That's what I already said

Almost, there is a world of difference between a thin coat and a dust coat. If the guy hasn't done it before and puts anything more than a light dusting then it can crinkle. I just thought it needed clarifying. The stuff needs to go on as dry as possible, like Mike Bavarro has said.

Edited December 16, 2006 by Mike Navarro

[Phil Mailloux]

@Mike: I have a real spray gun in my shop here. I'll buy a nitro spray can though, because I dont want to go through cleaning the gun after every coat

You don't need to clean the gun after every coat. Nitro can be left for days in a gun withouth any problems. To clean it just tip out the lacquer put a bit of thinner in it and spray it out the nozzle, done. Save the big cleanup with disassembly for when the lacquering process is all finished.

Nitro isn't Poly, is won't get hard in your gun like Poly does. If Poly solidifies in your gun you pretty much have to throw it away. Nitro stays as a liquid. I've used a lot of the Clou Nitro through a spraygun when I lived in The Netherlands and can vouch that it's no cheap crap. Try it.

[Mike Navarro]

@Mike: I have a real spray gun in my shop here. I'll buy a nitro spray can though, because I dont want to go through cleaning the gun after every coat

You don't need to clean the gun after every coat. Nitro can be left for days in a gun withouth any problems. To clean it just tip out the lacquer put a bit of thinner in it and spray it out the nozzle, done. Save the big cleanup with disassembly for when the lacquering process is all finished.

Nitro isn't Poly, is won't get hard in your gun like Poly does. If Poly solidifies in your gun you pretty much have to throw it away. Nitro stays as a liquid. I've used a lot of the Clou Nitro through a spraygun when I lived in The Netherlands and can vouch that it's no cheap crap. Try it.

Phil, if you read carefully what I wrote, the bottle sprayer is a contuinity of the option a gave of using Urethane as a top coat in the headstock, I gave this options in case this person wasn't a professional and theres a lot of places were nitro it's hard to find, also, urathane is easier to apply over water decals because this kind of decals react better with this kind of finish cause penetrate less. Urethane my friend in a spray gun for more than 8 or 9 hours is a cleaning nightmare, I know you can leave nitro or acrilyc in the pistol, normaly I have acrilyc all the time in one of my spray guns. In the case Guitar Maestro said he use spray cans because he dosn't want to clean the spraygun after each coat, you are right as I said! he doesn't need clean the gun after each coat, only if you use urethane or epoxy. Using nitro cans have some desvantege, for example, you are appliyng a pre mix you can't control with a spray can, the mix of the laquer and thinner is something I change in ratio terms depends what I'll going to do, taking as a example the nitro aplication over a water decal I use a diferent ratio mix for the first MIST COAT than the the ratio mix of the cover coats, that is something you can't control with a spray can, the other is the air flow,a second element important in the first MIST COAT. For me worked great for years when all my custom guitars necks were painted in nitro using water decal no matter what other said, cause a person can't do something, it doesn't mean it's impossible, water decal and nitro IS COMPATIBLE! you just have to experiment a little bit with the process. The Fender's guitars got in those years a coat lock over their decals, only that was a very thin coat and the decal looks relief, if you put a decal with out paint do not prevail! I restored a lot of vintage Fender necks over the years, including restoring incomplete decals, and it wasn't to easy to remove if you do the same job in a decal without paint lock!, without paint lock the decal doesn't give any resistance to take it out. My Webpage

Edited December 19, 2006 by Mike Navarro

[sdrider2003]

Hi, can any of you guy's help with this problem, 1 Jan 2007

Read TopicJ-200 Headstock Problem

Hi everyone, i'm new to this site, so please bear with me, i was wondering if anyone could offer any help or advice. I have recently come across a Gibson J-200 copy, and the logo that was on the headstock was coming away, so i took it off completely, or rather, it crumbled away, the thing is is has left a slight indent as to where it had been, now all i want to do is fill it in, and replace the decal, but i am a complete novice and have never tried anything like this, so please could someone advise me on what i could try and do to resolve this problem. Happy New Year to all.

below is a link to a picture of the headstock, and no, i dont want any decals, i have my own, thanks anyway.

http://images.kodakgallery.eu.com/photos21...24133_0_ALB.jpg