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Guitar Build-off?


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Man, that sounds great and what not, but I think the general consensus is going to be "I'll build what I want, how I want, when I want." At least that's been my feeling up until this point. I remember someone quoting their wife as saying something like "GOTM amounts to little more than the accolades of a random internet forum." What I'm getting at is, what's the big deal with winning a competition like this? Now somehow do this at NAMM, and then we're talking business. :D my $.02

peace,

russ

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Man, that sounds great and what not, but I think the general consensus is going to be "I'll build what I want, how I want, when I want." At least that's been my feeling up until this point. I remember someone quoting their wife as saying something like "GOTM amounts to little more than the accolades of a random internet forum." What I'm getting at is, what's the big deal with winning a competition like this? Now somehow do this at NAMM, and then we're talking business. :D my $.02

peace,

russ

The build off is just for fun, so people can each feed off each other, in the hope of making themselves better. When faced with the fact their work can be DIRECTLY compared to others (eg: same design idea), then you'll find each participant strives harder than before to not be the last guy. And thats a GOOD thing.

I think its a great idea. I just hope it doesnt fall over like the last one. I cant devote too much time to it (and im not interested in enterring), but i can assist with something, maybe.

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The build off is just for fun, so people can each feed off each other, in the hope of making themselves better. When faced with the fact their work can be DIRECTLY compared to others (eg: same design idea), then you'll find each participant strives harder than before to not be the last guy. And thats a GOOD thing.

I think its a great idea. I just hope it doesnt fall over like the last one. I cant devote too much time to it (and im not interested in enterring), but i can assist with something, maybe.

I can understand that, I suppose. Doesn't do much for me at the moment though as I've become almost disgustingly hypercritical of my own work. So much so that I'm taking apart most previous builds and scrapping anything that's even remotely sub-par. I suppose it's a good mentality, but I'll be damned if I don't feel the least bit productive when nothing seems to be leaving the shop. :D

peace,

russ

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I can understand that, I suppose. Doesn't do much for me at the moment though as I've become almost disgustingly hypercritical of my own work. So much so that I'm taking apart most previous builds and scrapping anything that's even remotely sub-par. I suppose it's a good mentality, but I'll be damned if I don't feel the least bit productive when nothing seems to be leaving the shop.

This shows growth and professionalism, nothing wrong with that, you should feel good about raising the bar for yourself and what you will accept and what you will not.

Every builder, if they stick with it long enough, will reach certain 'plateaus' where the view is now different than it was, you're higher up and can see more of the big picture, and it changes you, we all go thru that we who stick with it long enough, and this will likely not be the last one you experience.

What you are doing for yourself will last a lifetime. This competition, if it even takes off, will last but a few fortnights at most. :D

So if faced with entering a growth phase or entering a competition, I'll take the growth phase every time.

If you can do both, great.

One small step for man, one great leap for mankind. :D

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I remember someone quoting their wife as saying something like "GOTM amounts to little more than the accolades of a random internet forum."

:D

An obscure internet forum actually, though apparently getting less obscure by the day as the membership has doubled since she uttered these words of wisdom.

Who was it who finally crossed the finish line with their carrie? That lasted a year and only one guy made it IIRC.

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Seems like everyone has nifty thoughts. I dunno if I would want to build to a spec. It could be cool if the design was what I wanted to build. Design is fine and I would be willing to take input and work with some fellas to refine it(maybe little design teams- that could be fun). I won't build to a photoshop picture though because it is not a working drawing The only reason I would see for limiting the basic shape or style would be to allow some sense of common theme. Beyond that you need room for the artist or maybe artists to do the work, and personal mods that may improve playability or sound. I still would strongly suggest we allow the folks that built and completed in the first CB build off shape the framework and fiekl the suggestions. If this is to become something that could work and be a semi-regular event. I think it's foundation should be built on past experience and by people who have participated(that can follow through).

I think we should bounce the ideas for a bit. Then prepair a list of suggestions, and outline for review(hopefully by past participants). Lets roll it around until around Christmas. Then finalize by New Years(same year :D ). Then kick it off for a Fall to Christmas completion. That should suffice for members who are time limited or have busy schedules.

Peace,Rich

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I've taken part in several forum based contests, some just for fun, some for prizes. They've all been 3d/design/digital art ones but the general concepts have tended to be the same throughout & are quite relevent here.

One of the reasons for suggesting that everyone builds to a design is that it prevents someone from just uploading in progress shots of a guitar that they built a few years ago...or that someone else built. If a design is given at the start of the challenge, everyone has an equal start.

It also means that if something goes wrong, say the headstock is the wrong shape or the upper horn is too short, it will be obvious to the judges. They can then decide whether to deduct points or maybe even add them if the builder has managed to correct the mistake effectively. Often people will post on here that they've made a mistake & then try to incorporate it into the design....then, a few months later they're taking on commission jobs.

If there's going to be a challenge, I believe that it should try to promote good working practices, encourage growth & possibly show them what the "real world" is like... especially as many of the members are students. If there's an open brief & people can do pretty much anything they like, not only will the judges job be harder but it will be difficult to tell what is a brilliant idea & what is a lucky mistake.

Just my take on it.

I don't (or wouldn't) like to build to a spec!!! If I build right now is for me and to MY specs...

That's fair enough...but what's the challenge in that?

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i was so sick of seeing carriebursts by the first month of that competion(from random internet pics by litch)that i still would not disgrace a guitar with it...

but to be honest...these days a carre nothing for maple tops altogether...i want nothing more than paint.after i finsh this explorer it may be a damn long time before i use exotic wood to make anything more exotic than a table.

alder,maple,and mahogany...that's where the tone is at imo

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If anyone wants my input ( :D:DB) ) I would recommend this:

Hire or vote yourselves 3 Mods, like Wes, Scott, Setch (Mod?) Maiden, along those lines (sorry if I left anyone out).

These guys:

1. Have a proven track record for settling disputes and such

2. Already have their own private forum to work out the petty stuff you don't need to see or know about

3. Can also act as a voting committee

4. Already get along with each other

5. What they say, goes, no questions.

Then Let THEM make up the rules. TRUST them to make fair rules and stop worrying yourselves as to all these details if you want to get this bird up and flying with minimum effort and postings.

You all can offer up your ideas about rules, but THEY stew it over and implement what THEY think is fair and common sense.

I would tell you that if you try to leave it all up to random posts as to who wants to do what and why, you'll never get anywhere and it'll never get off the ground.

LEARN the lessons that are there to learn from the Carrie thread, because so far, I see the exact same things happening all over again already, reguardless of what Low End Fuzz thinks (the Hot Air comment, which made no sense at all) you are going right down the same path, and will get the same results, so step yourselves up, get a 3-Mod committee to do the work for you, relax and build your dream axes.

I have Spaked. :D

Good Luck and GodSpeed to all of you. B)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now for my personal suggestions based on what happened last time...

1. Once a beginning date is started, NO new entrants. That happened repeatedly last time, a new member would want to join in 3 months into it, over and over again that happened, complete pain in the ass.

2. NO NEWBS. I would recommend you have to prove you have done at least something major to a guitar before you can enter, and provide an entrance pic to the committee, be it build a partscaster, done a pro refinish all the way, some sort of guideline, unless you all want newbs asking you how to build a guitar right in the middle of a competition, which I found very distracting and bothersome and again, a complete pain in the ass.

I agree with WesV below, I think you all should pick a model and everyone builds the same model guitar, that gives the judging committee an easier time of it, and makes comparisons for judging much easier.

Set a timetable for rule implementation, and an official start date.

Any rules that have not been thought out by that date, it's up to the Mods to decide what happens.

No one can enter a guitar that was started before the start date, everyone starts at the same time, pics submitted to the Mods to prove what you're building. If you blow it, you don't get to start over again, you lose and you're out. That's only fair.

I'll think of some more things that went wrong last time that could be fixed in the mix this time...

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I think if we are doing something like this we could probably base it around the best redesign of a classic format, after all there are a lot of people making certain similar things at one time around here anyway.

e.g. I bet if we did a build of based around a classic design such as a telecaster (or any other classic shape)there would be a lot of people either about to make or thinking of making one anyway and we could see who came up with the most original idea - still based around the classic shape.

I think we would still see a vast array of original ideas and design features, but there would at least be some kind of link between all the guitars and its still within the skill level of all of the builders here to enter. and it cuts out the whole design phase of the build-off, we could all get straight down to knocking out the chosen style however we wanted.

I quite fancy the idea of a super-strat build off actually!

As somebody who much prefers to produce original designs i still think its important to do the odd redesign of a classic model every now and again. I actually find it helps the development of new ideas.

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I've taken part in several forum based contests, some just for fun, some for prizes. They've all been 3d/design/digital art ones but the general concepts have tended to be the same throughout & are quite relevent here.

One of the reasons for suggesting that everyone builds to a design is that it prevents someone from just uploading in progress shots of a guitar that they built a few years ago...or that someone else built. If a design is given at the start of the challenge, everyone has an equal start.

It also means that if something goes wrong, say the headstock is the wrong shape or the upper horn is too short, it will be obvious to the judges. They can then decide whether to deduct points or maybe even add them if the builder has managed to correct the mistake effectively. Often people will post on here that they've made a mistake & then try to incorporate it into the design....then, a few months later they're taking on commission jobs.

If there's going to be a challenge, I believe that it should try to promote good working practices, encourage growth & possibly show them what the "real world" is like... especially as many of the members are students. If there's an open brief & people can do pretty much anything they like, not only will the judges job be harder but it will be difficult to tell what is a brilliant idea & what is a lucky mistake.

Just my take on it.

I don't (or wouldn't) like to build to a spec!!! If I build right now is for me and to MY specs...

That's fair enough...but what's the challenge in that?

I understand your thoughts and they are good. You have to realise though....

1. I could care less if they built it before. If they pay someone to build it there loss, and again I could care less.

2.You over estimate the importance of flawless recreations. Custom is custom, and if it looks and functions clean it is all good. If it looks like a pig or sounds like a pig it is a pig.

3. There is no way in heck this will have any bearing on who takes a commision in the future. To think the outcome of one guitar in a little friendly contest means much of anything more than an atta boy is silly.

4. I dunno what you think the "real world" is like. My real world is my little workshop. That is where I build my guitars. I do not usually build to anyones specs. I build for myself.

5. I think you have the idea that this is some sort of a contest to a prove qualifications as a "pro" or build to a factory spec. I have no interest in proving any of that. I am a hobbiest and always will be. I build for fun and try to make great sounding instruments. That IS the real world for 99.9+% of this forums members(I am assuming we have 70 or so "professionals"-that means they can make a living building on this site).

There are a lot of people that have the ability to make a nice guitar on this site. Like Perry said. This is about feeding on the energy of a friendly event. Nothing needs to be proven to anyone. Just have fun, and do what we love doing making the best guitars we can.

Looking over the last build off threads(I had forgotten that it went down in flames almost 100%). I would point out how much effort was put into photoshop and talking about "rules", and how little building went on. The people that can build will build, and they will not need a lot of rules. The people who want to focus on designing, sample mock ups, and fine points of professionalism. Will not make a showing. If you complete a guitar that you are proud of and plays nice you will have high marks in my book(any guitar).

Peace,Rich

Pre-Post EDIT; I agree 100% with Drak's suggestion(spooky :D ). I think we would be in great hands with that MOD SQUAD.

Edited by fryovanni
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Ok,

As is said im not in regarding actual build but i can offer myself for making 1:1 scaled ready to plot blueprints. You guys should decide what the specs should be and i can do scales based on it.

That is if any is required. :D

It would be best if it would be decided in a poll what guitar shapes are considered to be "ok" and then the one with moast vodes (or 2 or 3) enter the build off.

It has been mentioned that it would be cool to make some sort of auction for the instruments that are built in the build off, but maybe we should considder donating that instruments to some kids that really cant buy them or some music school or similar.

It would give good name to PG website, and i can tell you that i would never build guitar if there wasn't PG.

(then again maybe Brian doesnt want that)

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While you guys are planning all of this, I think I might actually get a guitar or two finished.

In the words of the great Monty Python, "Get on with it!"

And billious, build a guitar or two for yourself with the limited time you have and you'll soon see that the idea of building what someone else wants when you barely have the time to build what you want is a less than appetizing concept.

Again, just my $.02.

peace,

russ

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As Rich stated, there's very little need for organizing beyond voting for your 3 Mod staffers, they will take care of the rest. :D

Believe me, the more ladles in the soup, the more trouble will ensue, and the more problems you'll have.

Follow the KISS rule and you might have a shot of pulling this off.

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my one suggestion is that you all build les pauls..why you ask?

because the les paul is used in every form of music ever...from country to metall...and it has a level of craftsmanship involved,and it can be built so that everyone who builds one will not end up with a guitar they never use lying around..

like a tele...most forum members don't play teles...plus they are just a plain shape,no carving,not too much room for innovation...

plus drak has done just about everything with a tele that can be done...any of you want people looking at your teles mentally comparing them to drak's masterpieces?

just a suggestion...another good guitar for the same reason is the prs double cut

so i would say..prs double cut or les paul single cut

plans are also readily available for these 2 guitar styles...you can even buy templates on ebay for every facet of them

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Ok heres what i would want to happen, just as a starting idea you understand:

1. We vote for the Mods to be in charge of this

2. We vote for a common shape that the people who want to be involved agree on

possible list:

  1. Tele
  2. Strat
  3. LP
  4. PRS
  5. Katana (maybe not) :D

3. Anybody interested in taking part registers there interest, possible even with a small entry fee just to weed out time wasters (the rest of us donate anyway dont we!)

4. We start!

5. Each person starts a discussion with a picture of there stack of wood with a newspaper to show the date and gives details of there intention for the build.

6. We do it like normal in progress threads untill the deadline when we vote in GOTM fashion - maybe limited to certain members somehow e.g donating or featured members.

Rules i think we should consider:

  • 3-6 month time limit (personally i think 6 is about right)
  • shape specified - everything else down to builders descretion
  • we can use our own headstock shapes and it must in some way be different to a standard model produced by the company that makes these body shapes - were not trying to make a slew of copies here are we

Since it is quite hard to judge how good a guitar really plays or sounds they should mainly be judged on the quality and implementation of the design ideas the builder brings to the project. Still hard to judge but most of us now a good or bad idea when we see one.

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I think that is a good outline Wes.

I only have one question...I always wondered if it was appropriate to show your build progress in progress, or was it better to keep them all secret (except for submission pics to Mods).

Say you had a completely over the top cool-ass idea, and as soon as you posted a pic it gave someone else an idea that they had better step up their build if they were to stay in the competition,m or they hijacked your idea somehow...I think I favor secrecy until the bitter end except for Mod submission pics.

Oh, Mods can do spot checks by requesting pics from anyone anytime along the way just to keep everyone on their toes...just an idea...Jeesus, even I'm doing it now... :D

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personally i think it will be better if we have to do regular updates at least once a month showing what we have done - it will keep people interested and it may spur us on a little if we see people doing better than we are.

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I think that is a good outline Wes.

I only have one question...I always wondered if it was appropriate to show your build progress in progress, or was it better to keep them all secret (except for submission pics to Mods).

Say you had a completely over the top cool-ass idea, and as soon as you posted a pic it gave someone else an idea that they had better step up their build if they were to stay in the competition,m or they hijacked your idea somehow...I think I favor secrecy until the bitter end except for Mod submission pics.

Oh, Mods can do spot checks by requesting pics from anyone anytime along the way just to keep everyone on their toes...just an idea...Jeesus, even I'm doing it now... :D

This is one idea I was thinking for the GOTM. Because a lot of people see that a guitar that looks better than theirs is posted on the GOTM and refrain from posting theirs. And also all the "feedback" provided by members tend to incline people votes. This is why I would love to be able to just post the pics in an invisible thread, or had them PMed to a MOD who will post them on the GOTM thread and then voting day comes, it will be open! Also I think that all critizism of the guitars should be kept to zero until the vote is finish.

Further more, I will post the pics for the GOTM, with specs and with out the makers name... The only catch here will be that most of us like to document the in progress and show off a little bit!!! So this is very hard to do!!!

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wesv's ideas are all good EXCEPT that i don't agree with an entry fee of any type...this site is free(except for donations) and a fee of any sort is contrary to the philosophy brian seems to have about the purpose of this site.

i also heartily agree with drsak's supposition...if you post in progress while building is going on,it is just asking for idea theft...some are going to want to do all the unveiling at the end anyway...and i think that is best...keep DETAILED records of the builds,and at the end of the contest...post every entry in a step by step byuild manner(like a tutorial)all on the same day...that way nobody is tired of seeing the same guitar for months on end and no builders are getting frustrated by unwanted suggestions ("OH COME ON MAN!!!!YOU USED ABOLONE WHEN THE GUITAR CLEARLYIS CRYING OUT FOR MOTHER OF PEARL???AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON YOUR CHOICE OFPICKUPS!!!")

and then the best step by step progressions can be pinned as tutorials..and we can ask brian to put them on the main site

get my point?

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