Mattia Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Scroll saws are a bad, bad idea for cutting inlay, methinks. Any powered saw is, unless you're just cutting straight lines, no corners, nothing, or simple curves. You need to be able to vary you stroke speed, angle, etc. depending on how the piece you're cutting goes together; some are more fragile than others, etc. The only powere alternative, IMO, is very high speed spindle on a CNC, with the blanks fixed absolutely solidly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 you are aware mattia,that a variable speed scroll saw goes all the way from super fast down to barely moving?they can go as slow as like 1/2 stroke per second,maybe slower.that is the sort of thing they are made to do....all you need is a small one it just means you can keep both hands holding the shell still... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Wow!! I, too, have been proven wrong. Yes, you simplified the detail, but you DEFINITELY still kept much of the detail I thought was near-impossible! The difficult part is still to come-- cutting the "cavity" (what's it called for inlay?)... I hope your stubborn streak holds up, because I found that phase to be more of a challenge than shaping the shell. Congratulations-- looking forward to seeing this one inlaid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 you are aware mattia,that a variable speed scroll saw goes all the way from super fast down to barely moving?they can go as slow as like 1/2 stroke per second,maybe slower.that is the sort of thing they are made to do....all you need is a small one it just means you can keep both hands holding the shell still... Yes, but even if you have foot control (you need to vary speed abruptly, from full tilt to slow crawl, accurately) you still can't feel the blade snag in the shell, or 'read' the piece that way; that's what your sawing hand feels. There's a reason all big inlay artists either cut by hand or by CNC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 21, 2007 Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 i just don't see it...granted i have done no inlay on a scroll saw,and barely any at all,but i think if anything the increased control of 2 hands on the shell can only help...as long as you don't pushinto the blade..but why would you ever have it full tilt?your hand can't replicate that speed?rather,you would KEEP it slow always maybe i need more practice,but it takes friggin forever to hand cut shell. i can see why you would think it might snap the shell...but i think as long as the blade is slow and you stabilize the piece of shell you would be okay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cSuttle Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 It's a good design, but a tcover is the wrong application. Move it onto one of the control plates and make it larger. Then you will be able to see your vision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I can't see two hands being an advantage: the pieces are almost too small to hold anyway, and sometimes you do not want to go very, very slow, because it means the blade will wander too much when cutting, and/or you won't get as smooth a line. For me, it's the cutting hand that defines how the piece is shaped; the other just more or less positions the shell so that it has enough support, and the blade can saw the line it needs to saw. Might work, I very well might be wrong, but I'm not even slightly tempted to get a scroll saw and find out. I cannot see how it would increase either my speed or my accuracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealize Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I have to agree with you Mattia, by hand is the way to go. Like you say, it is the saw that shapes, not the hand that holds the material. cSuttle, I don't agree with you. The inlay turned out more or less exactly as I wanted it. I will always be able to see the design, cause I will be close to it.. Spectators may have a problem with it, but they are not the ones I make the guitar for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 But man... just a stylized dragon head on the TR cover, and a fully full-on detailed masterpiece on a control cover... THAT would be awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 if you saw by hand,the saw shapes...if you saw by machine,the piece moving around the stationary hand shapes... you know?the way you cut out wood with a bandsaw? i think ya'll are missing out...because in truth a scroll saw was invented to do exactly that type of thing...maybe if the desighn was extremely intricate,by hand would be the way to go...but you know ...i am all about the power tools...i just learn how touse them properly if possible i will let you know though...i have every intention of using a scroll saw...they make them very,very small for extremely fine work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealize Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I know what you mean westhemann, and it is possible of course, but I don't think you would be able to do some intricate work with it. You'd cut fingers just as much as shell.. hehe.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 well..i mean it is small work...your attention would have to be high... http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?...UseBVCookie=Yes 7/8" stroke,mini light,and an air blowing attachment...pretty precise but i don't see how you would cut your fingers really....the type of work means you would be going extremely slow actually this one is better...look at the speed range http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?...cat=Scroll+Saws and it has a foot controlled on/off switch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 It's very different, though; wood is far more consistent throughout, less brittle, than pearl is. A scroll saw with man made inlay materials, not too difficult. I don't tend to have to adjust a saw's feed direction or stroke when hand-sawing wood (only somewhat), and rememer we're talking absurdly small, thin pieces; it's like sawing veneer with a bandsaw. I can't see any speed, cost, accuracy, or quality improvements to be gained by using a scroll saw over a hand jeweller's blade. I use power tools in further shaping (particularly small sanding drums on my dremel to smooth out convex curves), but the basic cuts are things I would never want to entrust to a power tool. I maintain I would've read of at least one known inlay artist who uses a scroll saw if there were any concievable advantage. Besides, given the fact I manage to nick my fingers using a jeweller's saw (tiny, tiny pieces being cut), I really want full control over what's powering the stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 i think alot of inlay artists probably use scroll saws at least for larger pieces...that makes it no less "cut by hand" as long as it isn't cnc,it is cut by hand.now don't get mewrong...i think tiny,tiny pieces would not work out well....but i bet there are many instances where a scroll saw would come in handy. i did my first inlay cutting a while back...cut out a demon head...did a very poor job of it...but a scroll saw would have done it easily as it was a fairly large piece Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I dunno. I don't think it would work, but I keep getting proven wrong. Prove us wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 well..not on this guitar (explorer) but the next 5,i am planning on starting inlay work...but as slow as i build,that may be the year 3010... but in 3010,you better watch your butt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I dunno. I don't think it would work, but I keep getting proven wrong. Prove us wrong! I've used my scroll saw (Dremel) to cut pearl. I glue the pearl onto a 1/8" wood base with a small dab of CA and cut along the lines. The scroll saw technique is not easy and I found that the lowest speed setting helps in following the lines to be cut. I've never tried it by hand because I already have a scroll saw and I didn't want to spend extra money on a jeweler's saw and blades. I've never had a problem with my fingers getting too close to the blade because of the wooden base I use. Cutting pearl takes a lot of patience and I find that its tough to follow the lines closely, especially on curves. I don't know if its easier or faster by hand but I see a disadvantage in trying to hold the small piece of pearl and cut at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I don't know if its easier or faster by hand but I see a disadvantage in trying to hold the small piece of pearl and cut at the same time. well that's the problem i had...but i do have that little incense burner stewmac markets as an inlay support table...it helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unrealize Posted February 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Finally this weekend I had time to rout the damn thing.. :o) The saw cutting is better than the routing, but still, considering the size of the thing, I'm quite happy with it, and it sure as hell looks neat on there. I'm going to add 3 screws to fasten it to the wood, and I'm not looking forward to drilling the holes. The cover is damn thin, and I'm afraid I'll break it.. Picture: Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar2005 Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 Finally this weekend I had time to rout the damn thing.. :o) The saw cutting is better than the routing, but still, considering the size of the thing, I'm quite happy with it, and it sure as hell looks neat on there. I'm going to add 3 screws to fasten it to the wood, and I'm not looking forward to drilling the holes. The cover is damn thin, and I'm afraid I'll break it.. Picture: Cheers! WOW! I'm really impressed, especially considering the fact that you're just beginning to do inlay work. Truly inspiring. As a fellow beginner, I see that I'll have to start practicing some more. again... wow! The routs are nice and tight too. How much time did that take you and were you able to get it right on your first attempt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiotrib Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 3 screws to fasten it to the wood, and I'm not looking forward to drilling the holes. The cover is damn thin, and I'm afraid I'll break it.. Don't add screws. Buy a few 1/16 inch x 1/4 inch neodymium magnets (about 50c each) and glue them to the bottom of the cover where the screws would normally go. in the head, under where the magnets are fitted, make indentations, and glue in a disk of iron, or another magnet ... see this site for more info http://www.exit45.com/ttnp/MagneticCovers Cheers K4 PS I'm also in Europe and I got 200 of those magnets. If you haven't fitted the screws yet, email me and I'll post you 6 of them for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 5, 2007 Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 thanks for that radiotrib...i was going to ask about magnets soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radiotrib Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 thanks for that radiotrib...i was going to ask about magnets soon. Here's a source in the UK/Europe http://emagnetsuk.com/index.asp?function=D...CAT&catid=9 - take a look at EP390 - 5 quid (E7.50) for 50 Here's a source in the US - http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=10 - see D41 - $0.16 each (subject to a minimum order size) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 i ordered 100 for $7 at the rare earth place.that should keep me for about 30 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 i ordered 100 for $7 at the rare earth place.that should keep me for about 30 years Hahaha, yeah really. Well, if you're thinking like 5 for the cover, 5 for the body, that's enough for 10 guitars. So it'll last if you build one guitar every three years Sorry if I killed your funny I saw someone do magnetic covers on one of their projects, and I was immediately sold! It was a bit of a last minute change, putting them in on my guitar, and it didn't come out perfect, but now I know, haha. One thing about that website; He doesn't say how to get the cover OFF. I took sandpaper and a AA battery (Man, even with only AA you should see the flame figure on it ) and carved a little pinky-finger-notch in one corner of both the cover and the body. Came out pretty good! I'm wondering how you'd get the magnetic cover off without a finger notch. I wish I were making a guitar with a trem any time soon, a recessed, solid trem cover would look super sweet, and probably easier than properly finishing the trem cavity so you don't have to have a cover on it. If you were really cover-obsessed you could even drill the ferrule holes into a channel and cover the ferrule holes with yet ANOTHER cover! In my book, the simpler/sleeker the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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