westhemann Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 okay,well.... i have been on a quest to find a way to make guitar building easier and quicker,but there is one part that i am stuck on....finish sanding. specifically i mean the part after i have gotten as close to the lines on my body as i can with my spindle sander and my benchtop sander...then the hand sanding starts...i frequently use woods like bubinga(heavily figured so that tearout is too much of a risk for using a router and template)and hand sanding just seems to get nowhere at all... the orbital sanders and such are useless(the ones you get at most sears and such) because they are not agressive enough and they are always backed with soft rubber... so i am considering going to air autobody tools like these http://www.tcpglobal.com/proautotools/item...itemno=HUT+3900 and just getting a complete line of air tools,a little bit at a time.but before i do that,i would like to know what you guys do and see if there is a better option..specifically you guys who go through large quantities of wood as a business(perry,fryovanni,etc...) the idea is that before the year is up i would like to have a small woodshop set up where i can really have fun building my guitars..without finding myself getting frustrated with things like enormous amounts of hand sanding. i mean,what do you guys who do this for a living use?not just sanding either...i am also interested in other machines as well that make the job better and easier... now don't get the wrong idea...i have no desire to open up my own guitar shop like some wannabe with all balls and no skill...i just want my hobby to be as bad ass as it can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydrogeoman Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I am not following your thought process Wes. It seems that by the time you are ready for the hand sanding, you would not want something agressive. I find when I am ready to hand sand, my RO sander with the rubber backing is TOO aggressive unless I use a very fine grit (Abralon is great stuff - see Drak's testamonials). If tearout is a concern, have you looked at drum sanders in leu of a thickness planer? Something like this: Drum Sander If you find a way to avoid hand sanding - patent the idea! Cheers Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 i think the stuff i have is just too small really...i guess i was just wanting an orbital sander that was more aggressive than the ones you buy at sears or what have you... see...i have finish sanders out the ass...but i don't have anything that really block levels down to 220 ...if i use the finish sanders,they create small low spots where the backing pad is too soft. i think what i need is the one i linked to i guess...but i did modify my orbital sander last night by removing the soft pad and replacing it with a leveled piece of wood the same size...i have not tried it yet,but i think it will work better... it's not hand sanding i am trying to avoid entirely....it's the part where there are only small imperfections that i have to sand everything else down to...with alder and such it is easy...but with bubinga or hard maple,it is really tough,especially on the parts of the body you can't really get into... probably a lost cause Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Wes, and just getting a complete line of air tools,a little bit at a time.but before i do that,i would like to know what you guys do and see if there is a better option..specifically you guys who go through large quantities of wood as a business(perry,fryovanni,etc...) You shouldn't really put my name next to Perry's. Guys like David, Perry, Doug and so on do this for a living(I am a total hobbiest). What I do for a living is probably closer to what you do for a living(only in the Electrical side of things). I sells small bits of wood just because I get a kick out of it. For what it is worth though... The main tools I use for shaping are #1 Bandsaw, #2 Router & Templates or flat surfaces get the Thickness sander, #3 Drum Sander, Belt Sander, and large Disc sander. I also use planes, scrapers and blades before I hand sand. I generally do very little hand sanding that is removing more than say 120 grit scratches. I find speed comes more from the templates and jigs that I use(they get me very close to begin with). The R/A is handy for a last step(I am pretty close and just removing scratches) before hand sanding in many cases. I found the Thickness sander was a life safer on my acoustics(so many uses) and I would highly recommend one if you can swing it. I long for the heavy duty hobbiest shop just like you Wes. I will watch for responces from other fellas. Maybe you and I can both take our shops up a notch Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 22, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Maybe you and I can both take our shops up a notch wouldn't be too hard right now...because my "shop" is a picnic table in the front yard,a jobox full of power tools,and a small desk in the house for intricate work...i ain't got nuthin' but a 9" bandsaw,a jigsaw,a spinldle sander,bench belt/disc sander(small) and a couple of finishing sanders and a bunch of hand tools...oh,and a drill press and a small jointer i put you in that category because you go through alot of wood...i know you just cut and resell it,but i thought you might have an idea.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doeringer Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Yep what Fry mentioned will get you closest to reducing the sanding. I use a small sanding station and the orbitals (away from an edge) with a fine grit and do very little hand sanding as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Maybe you and I can both take our shops up a notch wouldn't be too hard right now...because my "shop" is a picnic table in the front yard,a jobox full of power tools,and a small desk in the house for intricate work...i ain't got nuthin' but a 9" bandsaw,a jigsaw,a spinldle sander,bench belt/disc sander(small) and a couple of finishing sanders and a bunch of hand tools...oh,and a drill press and a small jointer i put you in that category because you go through alot of wood...i know you just cut and resell it,but i thought you might have an idea.. I think the shop tools that helped me "process" more wood were... #1 bandsaw(14" w/riser, good blades and good bearing guides), #2 Thickness sander(Performax 16-32), #3 jointer(I use a 6" and a 4"-4" is only for softwoods), #4 Sliding miter saw(Nice Hitachi, very accurate). Thats from a ruff processing point of view. Depending on what I am working on different tools are more helpful. The bandsaw is certainly #1 for necks, bodies. Having the drum sander opens up the resawing potential of the bandsaw, as well as making binding, veneers, leveling inlay and getting bodies surfaced. You would probably be supprised just how much milage you can get out of a drum sander. For necks its the jointer/bandsaw/spindle and a little drum sander(from there I mainly use rasp, planes,spokeshaves etc...). Jigs I have made as well as templates are what open up the router/drill press for me. The more I can "cut" closer or with higher accuracy the better and really jigs and templates seem to be the key to accuracy and repeatability. It seems like the farther away from "sanding" I get and the more I "cut" the better my accuracy becomes(drum sander not with standing as I can get very accurate with it). I hope that helps a bit. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 For fine-tuning shapes and hand-sanding, IMO you cannot beat a random orbit sander (not an orbital sander, gotta be random!). Plenty out there with hard-esque sanding pads (look for self-stick models rather than hook and loop paper), and Makita, DeWalt, blue Bosch tools should all be great. For real 'agression', there's the undisputed best electric hand tool maker out there (with a price tag to match), Festool. I've demo'd their Rotex tools, and they're downright awesome. From very agressive to being capable of finish sanding (depending how you're using them), these are the king of sanders. Since I could buy, oh, between 4 and 6 of the former brand (Makita, Bosch, DeWalt) for the price of one Festool sander, though, short of an eBay special, I'm unlikely to ever get one. Granted, I hardly ever build guitars with flat areas anywhere (carved tops and backs here, and acoustics are arched all over), so maybe I don't find the orbitals a problem because of that. For any large flat areas, I do my 'sand with large sheet of MDF with sandpaper glued to it' to level... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 http://www.goearthstone.com/quik_sand.asp hmm....anybody ever use this?seems like it may be a stepping stone before sandpaper http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/default.php?cPath=38 nice rasps here... i am looking for a rasp that would have a handle on both ends,and have the teeth cut sideways so that you would drag ot like a drawknife...i think that woulds be useful...anyone know of anything like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikbojerik Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I've done belly cuts and forearm contours in alder with a Makita random orbital sander and 60-grit discs in like 10 minutes each. Just jack it up to 5 and bear down. But for edges, I spindle sand, rout the roundover on a router table, and then its all hand sanding from there. But for big levelling jobs, like a whole body top & back, it's definitely the drum sander. But they make so much dust, you'll need a real dust collection system...the shopvac will either choke on it, or blow it all over the room (depending on what filter you have). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 those quiksand things are essentially 3M sanding sponges; think of them as non-metallic steel wool replacements, and use accordingly. Hand-cut rasps are awesome. Really, once you use one, you'll discover that a rasp is a much finer, more controllable tool than machine cut tools seemed to indicate. Huge difference. StewMac's look pretty cool, too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 you know the quicksand things are crushed glass,right?i think they are supposed to be hard yeah...i really want a good set of hand cut rasps....that will be essential for my shop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postal Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I dunno the name brand, but I have a larger diam (about 3")drum sander for a drill press with a bearing follower on the bottom for patterns. Sounds like just the thing if tearout is your main concern. Other than that the MOST usefull sanding tools are, osc spindle sander, RO sander, and if you have the money, a pedestal sander with inflatable drums..... These look much like a buffing machine, but have sanders instead of buffing wheels. A 6" inflatable drum on one side, and a 2"ish inch one on the other should make quick work of most projects. The inflatable drums are not cheap, but when you know how to use it properly, are extremely usefull. A strat with a 1/2" radius, you can press softly into it and sand the flat side, or press HARD on the radiused edge itself, and it conforms to the shape of the radius to sand the radiused edge. If you get one of these, an osc spindle sander is almost useless. Without this tool, an osc spindle is highly recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibnaz5150 Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I use a robo sander for my edges after the cut out. Start with 60 grit...then 80 to 120. I had to make a few extra wheels for the finer grits. I made them slightly smaller for each grit. I have a dewalt RO. I'll go to 220 with that....and she's all hand sanding from there. abralon works great for contours ,cut aways.I know what your sayin.I tried finer grits on the orbital,abralon. wet the wood down and said @#$%^&*! ...nice fine orbital swirls....no good! So I think though it's not my favorite thing is... hand sanding has it's place. Have to say a oscilating spindle sander seems interesting...been eyeing one up through grizzly.Think that would be the cats #$$ for your edges. hmmm my dream list..jointer,thickness planer,better table saw,bandsaw,drum sander, oscilating edge sander,lathe,dust extraction....damn santa left me coal this year so hopefully next year ...after I take out a 2nd mortgage to finance the equipment I'd like to have. For now it's what I got...and I'll get by. Main thing is I'm enjoying it. Think the big equipment takes the fun out of it unless your mass production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibnaz5150 Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 (edited) eeeeeeeeeeeeish got a double post... Edited January 29, 2007 by ibnaz5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 I dunno the name brand, but I have a larger diam (about 3")drum sander for a drill press with a bearing follower on the bottom for patterns. Sounds like just the thing if tearout is your main concern. Other than that the MOST usefull sanding tools are, osc spindle sander, RO sander, and if you have the money, a pedestal sander with inflatable drums..... These look much like a buffing machine, but have sanders instead of buffing wheels. A 6" inflatable drum on one side, and a 2"ish inch one on the other should make quick work of most projects. The inflatable drums are not cheap, but when you know how to use it properly, are extremely usefull. A strat with a 1/2" radius, you can press softly into it and sand the flat side, or press HARD on the radiused edge itself, and it conforms to the shape of the radius to sand the radiused edge. If you get one of these, an osc spindle sander is almost useless. Without this tool, an osc spindle is highly recommended. Hmmm.....interesting. I wasn't so sure about the usefulness of an inflatable drum sander, but you've got me curious; I've got a lousy orbital sander (to be replaced with a Makita or DeWalt Random Orbit sander when the next cash inflow arrives), and I've mostly been considering a belt/disc combo, wide enough to handle guitar sides; sanding convex surfaces is something I don't have the powered tools to do. I have (very) limted space, so anything I buy, I have to consider carefully; price breakdown is as follows: - Disc/Belt combo sander: 250 euros. - Dual inflatable drum sander (5" diameter larger drum): 150 euros - Oscillating drum sander: 150 euros. I already have a drum sander, and a robosander, and what I don't like is the lack of oscillation; leaves a fair amount of hand sanding to get the scrape marks out. But the flexibility of the inflatable drum sander, maybe the possibility of mounting buffing wheels, might be worth the extra cash...wish I had the shop space, because I'd probably get all three then; as it stands, I already have to squeeze to fit the soon-to-be-built thickness sander into the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted January 29, 2007 Report Share Posted January 29, 2007 (edited) we use these Wes http://www.tcpglobal.com/proautotools/item...temno=DNB+21035 12,000 rpm and from 3/32nds to 3/8ths orbit (all differant for differant needs) 120 for ruff then 220 for fine then a secret for the final but they chew alot of SCFM's so you need a good compressor but they work great and are fast so your thinking is correct Mattia "I've got a lousy orbital sander (to be replaced with a Makita or DeWalt Random Orbit sander when the next cash inflow arrives" these are not in the same ballpark if you do a lot of work the extra money is well worth it the electric RO's dont have enough rpm's Edited June 3, 2007 by spazzyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibnaz5150 Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) hmmmmm...what's that secrret spazzyzone? will this do the job for a oil finish?? when hand rubbing an oil it seems to pick the slightest swirl or even a scratch from 400 grit by hand if not careful. I stop with my RO at 220. I then proceed to 320 up to 600-800 by hand for an oil. Edited January 30, 2007 by ibnaz5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted January 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 thanks spazzy,i guess you just confirmed what i was thinking...i just need to get a really good compressor and then i can do everything from sanding to spraying...need a compressor anyway for other stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 Oil finishes need at least an 800 grit fine-sanded finish to look good. I go to 1200, rub down with 0000 grade steel wool, then oil. Spazzyone: sadly, I really, really don't have the space for a bigger, badder compressor; the one I have now is almost too big as it is, and it can just handle the mini HVLP gun I throw at it. As for speed, though, both the DeWalt and Makita (and Metabo) orbitals are variable speed, from 4000 to 12,000 rpm. Right now I have a cheapy non-random 'multi sander' that also has a disc, which is lousy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spazzyone Posted January 30, 2007 Report Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) you can also help out a smaller compressor ive used a broken compressor as an expansion tank if you can get hold of a broken or old compressor (make sure its not rusted to hell as it will burst) just tee off your good compressor run one side to your tool and the other to the second tank it will add more volume to your supply but will not add pressure hmmmmm...what's that secrret spazzyzone? will this do the job for a oil finish?? when hand rubbing an oil it seems to pick the slightest swirl or even a scratch from 400 grit by hand if not careful. I stop with my RO at 220. I then proceed to 320 up to 600-800 by hand for an oil. i cant say what is used after the orbital but i can say if your sanding by hand then pick up a pair of magnafying<--spell check / reading glasses that are at least 2x magnafication....4x is better then you will see the fine scratches that the eye just cant see also remember light is your freind. chances are if you see a shadow something is wrong Edited January 30, 2007 by spazzyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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