Neck Bow--should I Be Worried?

[Mickguard]

I've been making some final adjustments to the tele I'm working on before I get down to sanding. One of the things that needed adjusting was the neck pocket depth. So to check that out, I bolted the neck on, screwed the bridge in (it's a vintage trem style--but I didn't have the springs attached, just screwed the bridge in place with the approximate rise it'll have). Then I put a string on to see where I'm at. I only put one string on, an old beat up string.

Well, the neck has a pretty deep bow to it --to the point where fretting it places the string against the last fret, and no notes come through (just the pinging off the last fret). I've tried adjusting the trussrod, and that helped some, but not a whole lot--instead of a pinging I got a rattling sound. The string height should ordinarily be okay, otherwise (I had the saddles adjusted high).

The neck has been off for a few months now, but it hasn't taken any extreme heat or humidity in that time.

So is it normal for the neck to be bowed like this even when there's no string tension? Does this mean the neck is screwed? (It's a one-piece maple neck, i.e., the neck is the fretboard).

Right now I've got it clamped in a long radius block to see if that will help. Maybe I should find a way to heat it?

I've never much trusted this neck (ebay...the truss rod is very stiff, the nut is slightly stripped) but still, the guitar is built around it, I'd hate to have to replace it.

[Setch]

How much bow? Capo the first fret, and fret at the last then use a feeler gauge to measure the gap at the 7th fret.

[Mickguard]

How much bow? Capo the first fret, and fret at the last then use a feeler gauge to measure the gap at the 7th fret.

Well I've taken the neck off in the meantime. But using a straight edge resting on the first and last fret I get a gap of 0.65 mm, maybe a touch more, at the 7th fret. But again, that's without strings (and with the neck lying on its back).

If it helps any, the gap appears pretty consistent (same at the sides and at the middle), so it doesn't look like the neck is twisted.

I should have measured it before --it's been clamped in the radius block for the last couple of hours, but it seems to me the gap was wider before, so maybe the neck is responding to the truss rod in the meantime?

If I have time tomorrow, I can try putting all the hardware on and stringing it up with a full set of strings to see what happens.

[fryovanni]

Mick,

I am trying to figure out why you would fret out if you had extra relief(because of the bow). It would make sense if you had back bow, but from your responce it sounds like the neck has forward bow in a relaxed state. I am wondering if you may have either a neck pocket depth or maybe the pocket is setting up angle that is causing the problem. Given the frets are fairly level, extra relief should not cause fret out(it should cause high action). I hope I am not mis-understanding your posts. I would adjust the neck till it is straight under no tension. Check the frets for level. Then attach the neck and check the neck to bridge angle with a long straight edge. If that is good then go through your regular nut clearance check. Set the relief(hopefully the truss is working). Then set up action.

Good luck with it,

Peace, Rich

[Mickguard]

I am trying to figure out why you would fret out if you had extra relief(because of the bow).

Yes, I was wondering about the too...I'm pretty sure the pocket is level, but I'll have to double check that --it's possible there's a bit of an angle in there? That would make sense.

Unless this has something to do with stringing it up without the springs on the tremolo? I'll put the guitar together tomorrow to see what happens.

[fryovanni]

I am trying to figure out why you would fret out if you had extra relief(because of the bow).

Yes, I was wondering about the too...I'm pretty sure the pocket is level, but I'll have to double check that --it's possible there's a bit of an angle in there? That would make sense.

Unless this has something to do with stringing it up without the springs on the tremolo? I'll put the guitar together tomorrow to see what happens.

Springs on the trem will effect your saddle height, but under tension it should be pretty much locked. Not good for making final adjustments, but as long as the saddle were high as you mentioned. It wouldn't create the fret out issue. High saddle again would lead to higher action or clearance. Keep us up to date on what you find.

Peace,Rich

[Mickguard]

maybe the pocket is setting up angle that is causing the problem

An excellent call. But it's not the neck pocket --it's the neck itself (thanks Fender). The heel is slightly thicker at the rear, introducing an angle and making the heel sit too high at the end. I placed a small shim (piece of cardboard) at the headstock end of the pocket. Then I set the guitar up with the full complement of strings and springs, adjusted the truss rod and was able to get pretty much the action I like.

As for the bow, I was able to adjust the to within the relief I need --I think part of the problem I had yesterday was that I didn't have all the tuners on there ---in light of the 'fat finger' discussion, it makes sense that the lack of weight on the headstock had an influence on the straightness of the neck.

So now I need to decide what to do about the shim --I could adjust the pocket, adjust the neck, or just build a shim out of wood. I'm tending toward the last one.

[westhemann]

it makes sense that the lack of weight on the headstock had an influence on the straightness of the neck.

that theoiry was never put forward that i recall...weight of headstock has nothing to do with the straightness of your fretboard

[fryovanni]

Sounds like you figured it out(neck angle issue). Good for you. I have never heard of the weight of a headstock effecting straightness of a neck. If that was the case I think you would be dealing with a heck of a weak neck, and I suspect your action would swing wildly even while you played normally.

Peace,Rich

[Mickguard]

it makes sense that the lack of weight on the headstock had an influence on the straightness of the neck.

that theoiry was never put forward that i recall...weight of headstock has nothing to do with the straightness of your fretboard

Depends on what position you're in. I mentioned that I was working and measuring with the guitar on its back, not in playing position--so with no extra weight on the headstock, there was less counterbalance to the tension of the string.

I'm not saying that there's a huge effect, just that it might have played a role in the big bow I was looking at --although the fact that the heel of the neck is angled turns out to be the biggest part of the problem.

Like I said, I'm not so certain I trust this neck ---mostly because it's a single-piece of maple, and I think laminated fretboards add strength to the neck. But I'm looking at the neck as temporary--I'll eventually want to replace it with a neck I make myself. I'm not so enthusiastic about playing a non-Fender guitar with the Fender logo, even if it is a Fender neck.

[westhemann]

not to sound flippant,but you can't really believe the few grams of weight you are talking about is going to do anything at all to counteract the string tension?seriously?

[Mickguard]

not to sound flippant,but you can't really believe the few grams of weight you are talking about is going to do anything at all to counteract the string tension?seriously?

All I know is that the first rule in doing a full set up of a guitar is to hold it in playing position. Why? Because the effect of gravity is enough to stretch the neck and throw things out of whack if you attempt to set up the guitar on its back.

So if the simple fact of laying a guitar on its back is enough to stretch the neck, then it stands to reason that laying the guitar on its back with a full set of tuners will have even more an effect.

And since, as you've said yourself, you like a well-balanced guitar, then you know how much of a difference a set of tuners can make to the balance of a guitar --if you remember my Bocaster, the guitar balanced perfectly without the tuners. But with them, the guitar just nose-dived.

Then there's the idea of touching the headstock to a piece of furniture--it doesn't take much pressure to produce a real change in the sound or amplitude of the guitar.

Anyway, like I said, the real issue behind the fretting out I was getting is that the neck isn't lying flat in the pocket. Trying to figure things out with the guitar on its back and with no tuners was no help, that's for sure.

[westhemann]

So if the simple fact of laying a guitar on its back is enough to stretch the neck, then it stands to reason that laying the guitar on its back with a full set of tuners will have even more an effect.

that "if" is what makes it all conjecture.

i do not think laying the guitar on it's back stretches the neck...rather i believe the strings tend to bend a hair towards the ground,and when it's on it's back,you lose a hair of your string height in the middle of the neck....see what i mean?

it is highly unlikely that the small effect of gravity on the headstock is going to counter your string tension to any quantifiable measure...

but in truth i set my guitar up in playing position merely because i am playing it when i do the setup.

but theories can be argued all day...practicality is all that matters to me...and in any practical sense,a set of tuners will not bow your neck

[Mickguard]

Just an update...I cleaned up the neck pocket a bit, that turned out to be part of the problem--I'd left a small ridge along the back. After that I strung the guitar up and tuned it to pitch and adjusted the relief, so that at this point it's spot on. Also, I replaced the saddles with Graph Tech String Savers-- a nice side benefit is that they're thinner than the original saddles, and the screws are much shorter, so I can get a pretty low action without the screws sticking up too much.