Grounding Active Pickups

[Davis guitars]

do you have to connect a ground wire anywhere in the control cavity or do you not need one?...well so far its not going that great lol for some reason everything thats comes in the emg wiring kits are off lol i need a longer capaciter (spelling?) im doing the rewire for a friend of mine he has a bc rich warlock(once again spelling?) and really not liking the kits

Edited January 30, 2007 by Davis guitars

[Daniel Sorbera]

You do not have to ground the bridge with active pickups. But I still shield and ground the pickup cavity, since the pots and switch are just regular pots and switches.

[Davis guitars]

You do not have to ground the bridge with active pickups. But I still shield and ground the pickup cavity, since the pots and switch are just regular pots and switches.

where should i ground it to?

[Xanthus]

I was kinda wondering the same thing. I'm planning on getting an EMG 60/81 set for my project.

So a yes to the pickup cavity shielding and a no to the ground wire shielding? Would it be detrimental to the electronics if one DID ground the bridge with active pickups?

And how does one ground a pickup cavity? Shielding, yes, but grounding, how would that work?

[westhemann]

i do not ground anything with my actives...most of the time i don't even sheild them....it just isn't necessary with emg.

and i play at insane volume within about 5 feet of my amp at all times

[brewu22]

i do not ground anything with my actives...most of the time i don't even sheild them....it just isn't necessary with emg.

and i play at insane volume within about 5 feet of my amp at all times

+1

[GodBlessTexas]

i do not ground anything with my actives...most of the time i don't even sheild them....it just isn't necessary with emg.

and i play at insane volume within about 5 feet of my amp at all times

Well, you do have to ground the battery circuit, otherwise they don't work.

I always ground the shielding on the quick connect wires, but I bought an RG760 a while back that came with EMG's pre-installed, and they don't have anything grounded except the battery circuit, and it sounds fine. Needs a new 5-way though.

[brewu22]

i do not ground anything with my actives...most of the time i don't even sheild them....it just isn't necessary with emg.

and i play at insane volume within about 5 feet of my amp at all times

Well, you do have to ground the battery circuit, otherwise they don't work.

I always ground the shielding on the quick connect wires, but I bought an RG760 a while back that came with EMG's pre-installed, and they don't have anything grounded except the battery circuit, and it sounds fine. Needs a new 5-way though.

I don't know a lot about wiring at all really. But for the circuit for a Emg to be grounded, doesn't a wire need to be attached to the bridge? Or, is it grounding its circuit within itself?

[GregP]

You don't ground anything "to" the bridge, even in a passive setup. The bridge gets grounded along with other components to the "ground" lug of the output jack. The problem being that you CAN get a shock if your amp has its polarity (?) switch reversed, or if you plug it into a reversed power outlet. You should always check outlets before using them anyhow.

So, the EMG instructions basically say that you do not NEED this extra "shielding" (your body being added to the shielding material!) with EMG actives, so you should simply not connect the bridge to ground, thereby removing any shock hazards related to having a grounded bridge. I suspect they also feel you're less likely to screw things up and introduce a ground loop into your circuit.

Greg

[westhemann]

In my experience,if you ground to the bridge (yes greg...to the bridge),emg actives do not work properly.

brewu...they ground to the battery...that is all the ground required on emg

[Bobby]

I have Zakk Wylde EMG set grounded to the bridge, works goodly

[GregP]

In my experience,if you ground to the bridge (yes greg...to the bridge),emg actives do not work properly.

Sorry, Wes. I absolutely defer to you as knowing more about guitars than me... at this rate, you're likely always going to. But you do not ground "to" the bridge. The bridge is added to the ground path, it is not the ground path's destination. The ground lug of the jack is the ground path's destination. Furthermore, EMG's literature doesn't actually talk about grounding EMGs "to" the bridge. What it says is that you should remove your bridge ground if you're using EMGs, and goes on to explain (as I have already done) why this is the case.

<shrug>

Greg

[westhemann]

But you do not ground "to" the bridge.

You are playing with words,and I am trying to point out how ridiculous it is.

on passive setups,yu DO ground to the bridge...by proxie,if you wish,but there is no reason to cloud the issue by saying(nerd voice)"well,you see,you ACTUALLY ground to the claw of your floyd,so technically you are not really grounding to the bridge...and if it were in fact a tom or something you would ground yo the insert...so you see that still is not the bridge,you are just bringing it into the loopp"(end nerd voice)

so stop the unneccessary "clarification",which does not,in fact ,clarify anything except that you have too much free time...hehe

oh the humanity,,,,

[GregP]

Wes,

If you disagree with me, that's cool-- even though you're wrong-- but don't try to belittle me or call me a "nerd" or whatever while you're at it.

It wasn't semantics, it was fact. It wasn't about which "specific part or sub-component" is grounded, but the flow of electrons. I was describing the fact that you are NOT grounding anything TO the bridge. Every ground in the entire guitar gets grounded ultimately TO the jack. So, you also do NOT ground "to" the claw of your floyd, and you are NOT grounding "to" the post of the TOM or whatever. If you reread my post again, you can plainly see that I am not playing with words, and it wasn't any sort of "ridiculous" post. I posted a fact, YOU contradicted me with false information, which I clarified normally, not nerdily. And it WAS clarification, whether it worked on you in particular or not. And then you CONTINUE to get pissy about it, when you're just plain -wrong- this time. I swear, you're the worst person in the world for 1-reading what people are actually saying; and 2-trying to make yourself look big by resorting to an attempt at mockery. I'm sorry the jocks picked on you in high school (or whatever the heck happened to make you bust out the "big man" act all the time), but it's about time you got over it.

You failed to read the post, you fail to understand what I'm saying, and yet you bump an over-month-old thread to try to tell me that *I* have too much free time (which, true though it may be, is irrelevant and ad-hominem... not to mention a straw man, since it's self-evident that I have too much free time )? Since you've been here many times, it's not on the "new responses" list, meaning you had to dig it up somehow....

I like you most of the time, or at least find you to be informative and funny... but sometimes you can be a real mess. Reread my post, understand what I'm saying, and come back to me when you can be man enough to not resort to schoolyard tactics. When you first got sarcastic "(yes Greg, to the bridge)", I didn't take any offence, and I replied in as respectful a tone as I could, deferring to you but at the same time standing up for what I know to be correct. I suggest you do the same... defend your points with examples or facts rather than mockery, and maintain a level of respect while you're at it.

Jeeziz, man.

A thread that's been dead over a month...

What on earth is WITH you?

Greg

[Prostheta]

I agree about decisive fact as vagary can lead to confusion and misunderstanding amongst those who are unfamiliar with the subject material. Obviously both you guys know the crack with this one, but this thread is just going to look like another messy one for people who might refer to this in the future.

To sum up what was lost:

- it's not necessary to ground hardware in an active setup

Greg is correct in that you do not ground the electronics to the bridge - you ground the bridge to the electronics (note the clarification there) as the bridge is not a grounding point unless it is already connected to ground. In this case it isn't. You are electrically connecting the hardware (via the bridge) to ground potential which is supplied via the sleeve connection on your jack socket.

What on earth is WITH you?

Now be happy and laugh at that :-D

Edited September 17, 2007 by Prostheta

[GregP]

LOL!

That's a great one. Wish it was intentional. Unintentional humor can be funny, too, I guess.

[westhemann]

okay,your not a nerd...

I thought by now you understood my humor?but you must admit you are just using technicalities to confuse the issue

oh..actually it was on my new threads list.I don't get into this section much.I did not realize how old it was,I was just replying to you.

I try to teach humor to those lacking...it is a mission of mercy I assure you

[Prostheta]

In that case I apologise for not learning anything Wes.

Lack of care and attention paid to "technicalities" are often the cause of people taking the wrong end of the stick and perhaps even misunderstanding the issue and/or the solution. Being concise and accurate removes doubt and makes information easier to understand.

You do blow hot and cold Wes....

[GregP]

@ Prostheta-- now THAT was funny. I wish I could be that concise! As an editor, I cut away words left right and centre... as a writer, I tend toward excessive verbosity....

@ Wes,

You can't just flip it around as me being "without humour" now, even though I suspected that's what you were going to do... because I DO know your style by now! "You are playing with words,and I am trying to point out how ridiculous it is" simply cannot be taken as humour. I wasn't crying in my great huge pillow over here, but nor did it make me smile and say, "Ah, that Wes... what a clown, always cracking wise... gotta love'im." It wasn't a kind statement, it wasn't written with any identifiable humour, and your assessment was incorrect. The nerd voice was mildly amusing, but just barely, and you WERE using it to cut me or my points down... you can insult and attempt humour at the same time; many people have made entire careers off it.

And then in your 'humourous' response, you continue by then saying that I must not have a sense of humour because I don't just chuckle and slap you on the back when I'm told in no uncertain terms that I'm either "wrong," being "intentionally confusing" (not so...), or being "ridiculous." If you're trying to "teach" me humour, I suggest you start by being funny. If I take issue with your approach, it must be because *I'm* "humourless", not because your post was lacking in correctness and respect, right? Come on Wes... less deflecting, more ownership... that's the way we handle it when we're not at the comedy club.

Continuing with the unintentional court-case... *sigh*

No, I must NOT "admit" that I'm "using technicalities" to "confuse the issue." I made a rather bland and simple statement that was correct, and it could have just sat there in its correct glory. It wasn't particularly complicated or technical when I posted it, and it still isn't. "You don't ground anything TO the bridge" is perfectly clear. But YOU stepped up with "Yes, Greg, TO the bridge," which is where the clarification was forced. YOU were confusing the issue by making a statement with the voice of experience (we all know that you generally know your stuff and that I'm generally far less knowledgable) and with absolute confidence, while at the same time calling me out by name as having provided the false information. Perhaps you feel I'm being intentionally confusing because you got caught off guard and with your pants down and you STILL didn't seem to be grasping what was written in fairly plain English. Or Perhaps it WAS UNintentionally confusing to some audiences. But that's not something requiring an "admission" of some sort. Here, then: I admit-- you seem confused by what I wrote. That good enough?

Honestly, man... a simple, "You're right, I'm wrong, I shouldn't have taken that tone; btw, your momma cooks a mean breakfast" (or whatever) would have ended it. I shouldn't have had to post yet another "humourless" follow-up. Assuming you don't bring more "charges" () against me as you attempt to deflect, I hope we're done and can move on to actual funny stuff.

I'm surprised that you don't use the "view new posts" function rather than just going into individual forums (it's a lot quicker... it's not like you have to READ every thread it returns), but that's just me. But, I AM glad to know you're not the one with too much free time by digging up month-old posts.

Greg

[Maiden69]

Actually Wes wasn't the one that bumped the thread up, look it up! And I think that is was a technicality too, as I have to read the previous posts because I couldn't understand what was the argument about.

In the end, IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO GROUND THE BRIDGE!!!

Other than that, this thread died about 6 months ago, Jan 29 to be exact, but we always get people that don't look at the date of the thread, or might have a related question...

[Prostheta]

Ah well. Six months down the line, us EMG users aren't grounding our bridges so at least the information is still correct in that respect.

"Nice information, shame about the debate"!

[GregP]

Actually Wes wasn't the one that bumped the thread up, look it up! And I think that is was a technicality too, as I have to read the previous posts because I couldn't understand what was the argument about.

I didn't mean the original bump... just the month+ -later bump to continue the conversation between me and him.

In any event... yeah... no need to ground the bridge...

[fryovanni]

You guys crack me up

Caveat-THIS APPLIES TO U.S. WIRING

When it comes to the use of ground, grounding, grounded conductors, it becomes very confusing. The National Electric Code uses these three terms to define elements of wiring systems. They refer to the Neutral conductor(the common point of a grounded wye connected secondary or the corner common on a grounded delta secondary) as the "grounded conductor". This is because the common point is connected to the earth at the transformer(via ground rods, plate electrode, concrete encased electrode, ground ring, etc...). When the conductors from this transformer are brought to the service equipment you terminate the grounded conductor on a bus(the neutral buss). You then establish a "grounding electrode system" (with electrodes mentioned above) to develop a low impeadence path to the earth. This is a path that is used to disapate unwanted currents(lightning, accidental contact with a different power line, etc..) not developed by the source(the transformer servicing the building). All the significant metal(water piping, building steel, sprinkler pipe, gas pipes, etc..) in the builing is then "bonded" to the "grounding" buss. At this point and this point only you bond the "grounded"(neutral) buss and the "grounding"(earthed electrodes and bonded metal systems) together. All wiring after this point the Grounded conductor(neutral, white or gray wire) and the "grounding" conductor(green, green w/yellow stripe) remain isolated from each other in an effort to avoid parallel paths to the main bonded point. The "grounding" conductor(green one) is also called the "equipment grounding" conductor, because it is what is used to bond any exposed metal parts that may come in contact with a phase conductor. The main purpose of the "equipment grounding" conductor is to facilitate the overcurrent device(fuse or circuit breaker), by providing a low impeadence path for current to flow and thus device opens the shorted circuit.

In the case of an amplifier. You bond the metal housing to the "grounding"(green) conductor through the wall outlets third usually rounded and slightly longer terminal. The two remaining terminals are you phase(hot), and your "grounded"(neutral/white/gray), the neutral terminal being slightly larger than the phase terminal. The phase and neutral will usually feed a transformer in the amplifier, at that point there is no electrical connection between the primary and secondary of the transformer, unless the secondary is bonded to the housing. If it is bonded to the housing then you have a an electrical connection via the buildings grounding and grounded system conductors, this would electrically connect the secondary windings only. When you do this you create a "seperately Derived system", or a system in which the "grounded"(white/neutral) conductor is seperately derived from the main system "grounded" conductor . Ok stopping now.....

Greg,

You don't ground anything "to" the bridge, even in a passive setup. The bridge gets grounded along with other components to the "ground" lug of the output jack. The problem being that you CAN get a shock if your amp has its polarity (?) switch reversed, or if you plug it into a reversed power outlet. You should always check outlets before using them anyhow.

So, the EMG instructions basically say that you do not NEED this extra "shielding" (your body being added to the shielding material!) with EMG actives, so you should simply not connect the bridge to ground, thereby removing any shock hazards related to having a grounded bridge. I suspect they also feel you're less likely to screw things up and introduce a ground loop into your circuit.

Reversing the hot and "grounded"(neutral/white) will not give you a shock, as they will be connected to the primary side of the amps transformer and will not be electrically connected. In the U.S. they have been trying to standardise the connection to outlets with a cord configuration that keeps things straight between the neutral and phase conductor. For many years there was no difference in the size of the terminals, and the circuit will function. Probably the most significant difference would be in keeping the equipments wiring predictable, but the "grounded neutral conductor is supposed to remain isolated from the "grounding" conductor throughout the building and in any equipment.

Peace,Rich

Now Wes, you can call me a Nerd

Edited September 18, 2007 by fryovanni

[GregP]

Hrm. I'm having a hard time sorting through all that. Are you saying that there's no way you can get a shock from your amp being plugged into a dodgy outlet? There's information out there that would differ, though I admit I've never experienced it or even talked personally to someone who has. As for the polarity switch, I have living proof in my Garnet amp. You DON'T want to grab your strings if the switch is thrown the wrong way. I don't know if it's volume-dependent or not, but even at low volumes there's quite a sting. I have to admit, amps are even less an area of specialty than guitar.

Greg

[Maiden69]

OK I thought this was common knowledge, but I see it is not. In the new code for electricians (it's being up for almost 3 decades now) it is very hard to get this "shock" since we not only have a neutral wire (the white one if your electrician did his job right, but we also have what I call a "mechanical" ground (the green wire). Here is a copy of the Guitar Nuts site, and I knew I had read it somewhere else... If the ground (neutral in our case) fails, the current is sent thru the green wire.

Failure of the guitarist's own amplifier places a lethal voltage on the "ground" side of the jack and thus on the strings. This scenario is usually only encountered on early vintage equipment. Even then such failures are extremely rare but when they occur they can place hundreds of volts DC on the "ground" side of the jack and the failure may be difficult to detect until the shock knocks you on your backside. This failure is basically impossible with modern three-prong equipment plugged into a properly grounded three-prong mains outlet. Never use ground lift adapters on power cords! The shock path is from the amplifier, through the guitar chord to the guitar bridge and strings, to the guitarist's fingers. From there the shock path either goes through the guitarist to the floor through his feet or through the guitarist to a grounded piece of equipment such as a microphone. Even the first path through the resistance of shoes and floor covering may sometimes be lethal because the voltage potential is so high. The second path is easily lethal because the path from the guitarist to earth ground has very little resistance to the flow of current.