strawtarget Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 I want to finish my mahogany slab guitar body to look something like this... More detailed pictures (click the thumbnails) Here are the aspects of the look I'm after: 1. Shows off the wood grain, but in an understated way. 2. The finished surface isn't 100% smooth- that is, some of the grain texture comes though. (see pics!) 3. The stain distribution doesn't have to be ultra-super-uniform. (Not splotchy, though, either.) 4. Non-glossy, satin sheen. Here's my plan. I can't expect my first guitar finish to come out even close to high-end production guitar quality like the pictured PRS, but am I even on the right track? 1. Sand it with ultra fine grit sandpaper. No grain filler. 2. Stain it using stewmac colortone #5032 "Red Mahogany" stain by mixing with water and rubbing on with a drenched rag 3. Spray it with 4 or 5 thin coats of stewmac colortone "clear satin" nitro laquer What say you all? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 1. Sand it with ultra fine grit sandpaper. No grain filler. 2. Stain it using stewmac colortone #5032 "Red Mahogany" stain by mixing with water and rubbing on with a drenched rag 3. Spray it with 4 or 5 thin coats of stewmac colortone "clear satin" nitro laquer Sounds about right. But you only want to sand up to 220. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fookgub Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 1. Sand it with ultra fine grit sandpaper. No grain filler. 2. Stain it using stewmac colortone #5032 "Red Mahogany" stain by mixing with water and rubbing on with a drenched rag 3. Spray it with 4 or 5 thin coats of stewmac colortone "clear satin" nitro laquer Sounds about right. But you only want to sand up to 220. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 Does it have to 'level' when the pores are being kept open? I don't know much about finishing, but I thought the 'leveling' process referred to ensuring a completely glasslike surface. Since the pores are 'exposed' (?) anyhow, I'm not sure that this is part of the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littleman Posted February 8, 2007 Report Share Posted February 8, 2007 (edited) You're correct Greg, You don't have to sand it level at all, in fact, I would suggest not sanding it since it would give a different sheen on the top rather than in the pores. Just make sure you spray it on perfect and don't get any runs or dust... But if you do, go ahead and hit it with sand paper and spray another coat to keep the sheen correct. Edited February 8, 2007 by Littleman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Unless your technique is dead on, you will want to level it. Real satin finishes (ie, flattening agents in them) need to be treated the same way as gloss ones, including levelling and buffing. Otherwise it might look OK, but it won't feel quite so smooth. Well, it might, but you need very good spray technique for that to be the case. I do oil finishes that end up looking more or less like that, sand to 1200 grit (not a typo), apply oil, 'level' with 0000 steel wool, apply paste wax, buff with a T-shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawtarget Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 I do oil finishes that end up looking more or less like that, sand to 1200 grit (not a typo), apply oil, 'level' with 0000 steel wool, apply paste wax, buff with a T-shirt. I like the idea of doing an oil finish because it seems it might be less prone to critical error than using a rattle can. Can you post some pics of oil finishes you've done? I like the flatness of the tung oil finish, but I also kinda like the "white" sheen of a satin nitro when it hits the light. However, since mine will be a flat (not carved) top, the white sheen might not be so complimentary after all since there are no curves to highlight. Another thing i've noticed with some oil finishes is that they remain a little bit "tacky" or "gooey" or "wet" feeling, almost like how a blob of dried epoxy feels (but not to the same extreme). Is that just a poorly applied finish? The satin nitro guitars I've touched feel soft and dry, which I like. Thanks... I can really use all the input I can get. I'd really appreciate seeing as many pics of your oil finishes as you care to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Here's one I stained with Woodburst bing cherry and then tung oiled (Minwax tung oil finish). The one to the left is a factory finish, but is also Minwax tung oil finish (no stain). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Use a polymerized oil finish, like Tru-Oil, NOT EVER pure tung oil or the like; they take forever to dry and harden properly, and offer little protection. A good oil finish will feel smooth, silky, never sticky or tacky. It's not as powder-dry as a satin 'hard' finish, because it is a little softer, but it's certainly not wet feeling; there's a reason oil-finished necks are so popular - they feel great! I generally add a coat of good paste wax at the end, and buff that out with an old T-shirt (in fact, all my application involves an old T-shirt). Personally, I've been using Liberon's Finishing Oil, and Danish Oil's good too, because TruOil is quasi-unfindable here. This is the best (only, in fact) shot I have of my travel-sized electric, Iroko neck, mahogany/iroko laminates for the wings, finished with liberon finishing oil and paste wax. Probably could do with another application of wax (shot was taken abou 2 years after completion, maybe longer, no maintenance during that period). It's satin, wood looks aboslutely drop-dead gorgeous, nice 3-d shimmer, very organic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawtarget Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Wow, nice pics you guys. Dang. I think I might be sold on trying an oil finish. #1. What does paste wax do for the finish? I'd think that would fill in the exposed grain pores, which isn't necessarily what I want. Am I wrong? #2. How does the "1200 grit, oil, 0000 steel wool, paste wax, buff with T-shirt" process change if I want to stain the wood first? And what kind of stain works best under an oil finish? #3. From the pics posted, it appears that oil darkens the natural wood color just a little bit. Is this the case? (That's fine with me if so.) #4. Rick500: what kind of wood is the guitar on the left? I'd be quite happy if mine came out that dark with no stain! But I'm guessing that's something naturally darker than mahogany. Thanks again y'all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 The one on the left is koa (old school streaky koa from the mid 90's ). The right one is swamp ash. Here's another pic of the koa guitar (it's a Carvin DC135). There's some step-by-step info on how I finished the stained guitar here: http://aias-inc.com/rick/carvin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 Almost all finishes darken wood slightly (except some super-pale waterbased stuff, and superduperdewaxedextrablonde shellac type stuff), but yes, oil does make the colour deeper. The paste wax is pretty hard stuff, and feeds/adds a little warmth/extra layer to the wood, protecting the oil underneath. It's easy to re-apply the wax once in a while. Not a necessary step, but it really doesn't fill the pores. As for colours...I'll let someone else answer that. The nature of oil finishes means they're not the best option for staining; maybe a direct stain (waterbased, not oil soluble) with oil on top could look OK, but I'd only ever use oil on a natural finish guitar, personally, because I'd be afraid of smearing. Perhaps a stain, a quick seal with shellac, and oil finish over that, which will prevent the oil from penetrating as deeply as it otherwise would (which is why some folks seal acoustic guitar tops with shellac if they're oil finishing acoustics). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 I'm not sure if Woodburst stains are unusual in this respect, but they're made with tung oil, so I figured it would be the best option for staining under tung oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawtarget Posted February 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 I'm not sure if Woodburst stains are unusual in this respect, but they're made with tung oil, so I figured it would be the best option for staining under tung oil. That's interesting. I went and looked at their site and they have plenty of colors to choose from, too. Plus I went and looked at your carvin bolt finish page and it looks slightly less intimidating than nitro. I've got plenty of time to think about this I guess... I haven't even rough-cut the body shape out of my blank yet. Heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 keep in mind those woodburst colors are very cartoonie...i bought some a long time ago and they look horrible....imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted February 9, 2007 Report Share Posted February 9, 2007 There's a list of others' kit build pages, many of them with oiled finishes, here: http://carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=36 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Also, in all honesty, I'd want a stain that is NOT compatible with the top finish, particularly with a wipe-on finish. You don't want the stain seeping up through the layers, into the top; you want it to stay in the wood, and not dissolve/shift/change. Put the colour down, let it stay there, and apply finish over that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsilver Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 The nature of oil finishes means they're not the best option for staining; maybe a direct stain (waterbased, not oil soluble) with oil on top could look OK, but I'd only ever use oil on a natural finish guitar, personally, because I'd be afraid of smearing. Perhaps a stain, a quick seal with shellac, and oil finish over that, which will prevent the oil from penetrating as deeply as it otherwise would (which is why some folks seal acoustic guitar tops with shellac if they're oil finishing acoustics). The latest issue of Fine Woodworking has an article on dyes. It says you can use oil-based dyes to color oil finish before applying to the wood. The oil-based dye is a powder (suppliers are listed as W. D. Lockwood, J. E. Moser) and must be dissolved in mineral spirits before adding to your oil of choice. That may be an option for you - color and oil the mahogany in one step. The article says this process really enhances the depth you get from an oil finish by itself. Does say that the color may lift so a thin shellac coat may be useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Interesting, and I'm sure dyes can punch up the looks, but I don't want colour in my topcoats. Also, guitars are very different beasts from fine furniture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsilver Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Fine Woodworking's application was to use a little dye in oil to enhance figure / depth. You're probably right that using a lot of dye in oil might not be the most attractive on something like mahogany. Their test photos were on curly maple. Vis a vis furniture vs guitars, the application you described earlier (oil then wax) is similar if not exactly the finish applied on many of the furniture projects in this magazine anyway. I've got some wenge and some limba set aside for future projects. Maybe I'll try oil / wax on one of those. Easier than spraying nitro in the summer in Houston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 10, 2007 Report Share Posted February 10, 2007 Yeah, it's very similar to what I do with some furniture, although I never sand furniture to 2000 grit and above before applying oil I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsilver Posted February 11, 2007 Report Share Posted February 11, 2007 Yeah, it's very similar to what I do with some furniture, although I never sand furniture to 2000 grit and above before applying oil I like it. It made me think about sanding through the grits up to 2000 on a wardrobe or a sideboard or a chest. A guitar body is enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawtarget Posted February 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2007 Well dang... I was really into the oil idea for a while, but the majority of responders don't think it's a great idea over stain. So now I'm back to my original idea of stain+nitro. Why's this gotta be so complicated? Seems there's two camps: the "just spray it" camp and the "it must be leveled and buffed" camp. Are the following steps "correct"? just spray it 1. Sand it up to 220 grit sandpaper. No grain filler. 2. Stain it using stewmac colortone #5032 "Red Mahogany" stain by mixing with water and rubbing on with a drenched rag. 3. Spray it with 4 or 5 thin coats of stewmac colortone "clear satin" nitro laquer level and buff 4. Level with 0000 steel wool. 5. Buff with an old T-shirt. If so, it seems that I can try the "just spray it" technique and if I don't like the results, I can take it farther. And if I screw up the "level and buff" I can just spray another coat. Also, again, this is my first try at spraying nitro (and I'll be using a rattle can) so I am not expecting perfect results. I just want to start off on the right track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiggz Posted February 14, 2007 Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 i dont know what people claim is wrong with tung oil? its friggin awesome stuff and u can use it over stain, no worries just brush the first coat on rather than rub it on, and you are laughing i did that on my through neck bass with about 20+ coats i have a mirror finish and its durable like a mofo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strawtarget Posted February 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 14, 2007 Okay after reading a lot of the carvin stuff that Rick500 posted, I'm back to the idea of using an oil finish. So I sent this email to stewmac... I want to finish a mahogany body guitar using Tru-Oil. I'd like to apply your ColorTone "Red Mahogany" liquid stain to the bare wood before applying the oil finish. Do your ColorTone liquid stains perform well under an oil finish?...and I got this response... Thank you for contacting us. For best results, we suggest suspending the stains in your oil. Practice on scrap wood to ensure the desired color. Would you guys agree that mixing the stain into the first couple coats of tru-oil is the way to go? Thanks for continuing to put up with my long n00b thread here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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