westhemann Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I bought 2 phenolic fret-board slabs from Luthier's Mercantile back in the early 90's. It was 1/4" thick and very stiff. i have no idea if this is the same stuff....XX garolite..it's a paper based thing. it's warped for one thing...but i think if you had this in hand you would agree...it is nowhere near as stiff as ebony...more like maybe soft maple? you know..it's very similar to the shiny side of a masonite sheet,except all the way through like that...and black rather than brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 I ain't no phenolic expert, so who knows ? Plus, you never know when they change how they make any of that stuff, or when it starts getting made over-seas, then it can be a case of " they don't make it like they used to". I was just a young hackling when I used that stuff. I still have a long cut-off from it, since it was wider than it needed to be for the fret-boards. I was a big graphite neck fan back then, but couldn't afford one, and I knew Steinbergers had phenolic fret-boards (glued onto the graphite neck), so I thought I'd go half way, and try out the board part, at least (glued them with epoxy onto maple necks). I do remember when I cut it, it smelled a little like newspaper. Doubt I'd ever mess with it again for fret-boards. I got enough maple out in the garage for at least a dozen boards, if I'm ever up to that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 22, 2007 Report Share Posted February 22, 2007 they do sell some graphite impregnated stuff at the same place...it could be really stiff,i don't know...but it is extremely expensive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2007 I bought 2 phenolic fret-board slabs from Luthier's Mercantile back in the early 90's. It was 1/4" thick and very stiff. Well if there are consistancy issues with Garolite.... lets turn attention to the Norplex "Black Micarta" MC844G I mentioned in post #12 of this thread. Since that stuff is expressly stated as being for musical instrument fretboards.... does anyone have any idea of where to buy a piece? I Googled and no luck so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 P.37 of my 1990 Luthier's Mercantile catalog/handbook: Phenolic fingerboards have been used for years by Modulus Graphite, Charles Fox and his students at GRD, Zeta Systems, and even Ramirez has been known to use phenolic fingerboards. Phenolic, which is resin impregnated paper is extremely stable, black, but has grain lines (as though it were a flat sawn fingerboard), is easy to machine, although it's not great on blades, and it's cheaper than ebony. It provides a long-lasting , hard playing surface, and it is similar in strength to ebony. And the finished boards are almost indistinguishable from ebony. The boards are supplied in the dimensions 21"X3"1/4". They should be slotted to about .027" since phenolic won't give like ebony. (We do not slot them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 A couple of things... Don't use steel as a reinforcement. Its weight to rigidity factor is awful. You are far better served with graphite spars (LMI). I would be very concerned about neck construction if you are counting on fret board material to make your neck more rigid. By virtue of a mated surface you are picking up stability in two directions already regardless of material. I use 5 lam neck sections with carbon fiber fabric as two of the layers and stability is wholely provided under the fret board. That's as it should be. I use garolite because of its sound and its appearance. It really is worth a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 For those of you looking to use Phenolic I would stick with a linen version LE. Its the highest quality and comes jet black or buy it from someone selling it as a fingerboard. Paper is the cheaper Phenolic. I don't remember Linen showing layers when I have used it for jigs.That black router plate you probably own is Phenolic if you think you have never seen it before. I cant believe you can fret the board by any other means except with glue. Phenolic chips easily if you have ever tried drilling any. Like carbon fiber it may seem flimsily but its stiff when glued in place. I have never bonded it to wood so I don't know what you would use, Epoxy? I will have to find a scrap piece and try press flitting a fret in, then check for excessive back bowing. Woodenspoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 A polyurathane glue would work quite well, I would imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westhemann Posted February 25, 2007 Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 well...i can try it... knucklehead...do you ever have fretting problems?it said somewhere to make the slots slightly wider...but i don't see why that would be needed,since the fret tang compresses anyway... you say you like the tonal benifits....it feels less "snappy" than ebony to me...could you explain your take on what it sounds like to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P90 Posted February 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2007 I cant believe you can fret the board by any other means except with glue. Phenolic chips easily if you have ever tried drilling any. So is there a problem with the barbs on the tang of the fretwire? Must they be ground down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 Make it a fretless and the issue is solved! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 I was doing the Erlewine/Sadowsky/Teeter press fit fretting method back when I fretted the phenolic boards. I seem to remember breaking a couple bits in the dremel when widening the fret-slots. These days, you can shave the fret-tangs down and leave the slots alone *if* they seem too tight. If the stuff bought from McMaster is warped quite a lot, they probably would take it back. I once bought sleeve bearings from them and they were smaller than spec, and they said send 'em back, but then I got lazy and never got around to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckle_head Posted February 26, 2007 Report Share Posted February 26, 2007 ...do you ever have fretting problems?it said somewhere to make the slots slightly wider...but i don't see why that would be needed,since the fret tang compresses anyway... you say you like the tonal benifits....it feels less "snappy" than ebony to me...could you explain your take on what it sounds like to me? McMaster offers up jewelers blades that have an odd arbor, but a variety of kerf widths - I get my slots wide enough that the tangs grab and catch the ends with a bit of cyano just for peace of mind. I have never had my phenolic chip out but I have had it not accept fret wire. It isn't quite as snappy as ebony, but it is awfully close. I like the notion that it was not packed out of an African forest unbeknownst to anyone... As for bonding it to the neck, if the back surface is sanded to 150 Gorilla glue works well. I have had success with Titebond II and III as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desopolis Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 ...do you ever have fretting problems?it said somewhere to make the slots slightly wider...but i don't see why that would be needed,since the fret tang compresses anyway... you say you like the tonal benifits....it feels less "snappy" than ebony to me...could you explain your take on what it sounds like to me? McMaster offers up jewelers blades that have an odd arbor, but a variety of kerf widths - I get my slots wide enough that the tangs grab and catch the ends with a bit of cyano just for peace of mind. I have never had my phenolic chip out but I have had it not accept fret wire. It isn't quite as snappy as ebony, but it is awfully close. I like the notion that it was not packed out of an African forest unbeknownst to anyone... As for bonding it to the neck, if the back surface is sanded to 150 Gorilla glue works well. I have had success with Titebond II and III as well. what about standard titebond? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soapbarstrat Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 I think titebond only works half-way decent for holding frets because on wood, some of the titebond soaks into the wood. With phenolic, the glue can't really soak into anything. So, you're looking at only a couple grand of gap for the titebond, and I don't think that kind of glue has much holding power when that thin. No reason why CA or epoxy can't be used here. CA is tops for fret-work. Heck, I can put a finish on a fret-board (let dry, etc), then install the frets, then apply CA into the fret-slots and not get any on the board. And the CA , as far as I know, has the best holding power of any glue in such a thin layer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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