What Glues Dissolve Into The Wood?

[fryovanni]

Can you feel the Love . Now I am pretty sure this topic has been fully covered and beat to death once again. Let's look at the responces to this question when it is asked again(within the next 3 months), and see if the responces are clear and simple.

P.S. You bet Russ quite enough

Peace,Rich

Mick, You do not want to ruff up a freshly planed surface(unless you are possibly using Epoxy as Mattia mentioned). I think some people think the ruffness would improve the "grab". USFDS had a couple tests that showed(under a microscope) that the downside is that you fill the pores(wood is very porous when you look at it with a microscope) where you want to grab and the surface scrates and ruff fibers(the ruff fibers can kinda hide the joint a bit) do not provide as good of a bond(and can leave a wider gap effectively). If you do sand it was recommended that you sand no lower than 120 grit, but best results were found with freshly planed(sliced with a blade) surfaces.

[Mickguard]

claims the open time is too short, and it shoudl be diluted. Dilution can only add more water to the joint (bad) and less glue (bad); 5 minutes of open time is more than you should ever need for any guitar-related application.

Actually, adding water to wood glue is an absolute no-no. It interferes with the chemical composition of the glue, resulting in the glue's inability to create a proper bond. Just more stuff I've read.

They're water-soluble only because they clean up with water. You can't 'dilute' this type of glue.

Like I said, the key is to have all your clamps (last count I have 15 or so) lined up and ready to go before you apply the glue.

FWIW: I never bother with the roughing up the joint with sandpaper trick. I've found the key to getting good glue joints is walking down the hill and using a friend's heavy duty jointer/planer. I've also taken wood to a carpenter who has a professional jointer. I know that some people here are good enough to prepare the joint themselves, but I know that I'm not.

[MCH]

It's amazing how a simple thing as glue makes some responders become 'unglued'. The fear of lack of resonancy with glued wood causing poor tone, pales in comparison with all the other factors. Pickups, strings, electronics, amps, playing ability (I would wager EC could make the cheapiest store guitar sound great, I could make the most expensive setup sound bad LOL) etc. The most important factor of glue is that it effectively bonds the pieces of wood together. You don't want to be holding a bundle of wood if the glue fails.

[DrummerDude]

OK, guys.

I will just go tot he store and grab the first wood glue from the shelf.

[Jon]

Look at the reccomended clamping pressure for titebond, for example; you likely never reach that with the clamps you've got.

This is usually overlooked by most, so I just had to point it out again!

Don't worry about overclamping, just make sure the clamps are distributing even strength. As mentioned time and time again, chances are you don't have clamps strong enough to starve the glue joint.

[Bainzy]

In theory the harder the glue the more resonance you'll get, so logically the best glue to use is hot hide glue...

...but I've never tested the difference and I doubt anyone ever will. I favour hide glue since it dries clear, very strong, and most importantly because it allows you to separate the joint later on - that's why they still use it in violin making. For high end acoustic guitar making and piano making, hide glue seems to be a must, and it was used to join vintage Strats and Les Pauls, but by no means would I ever consider thinking anything less of a joint made with Titebond. My advice would be to try a variety of stuff, and stick with what you think works best for your projects.

[Jon]

You can seperate joints with Titebond as well - I have done this many times.

[fryovanni]

Jon,

You are right you can seperate titebond joints. The main advantage with HHG is that you don't have to worry about cleaning the surface because it will re-activate with the new HHG. After you expose an old Titebond joint it will need to be cleaned(well re-surface) because it will not adhear well unless the joint is cleaned. Creep is also not an issue with HHG. This makes it advantagous for acoustic bracing, and bridges. Personally I like Titebond for most applications, but HHG has advantages in some situations(not to mention super fast set time).

Drummer Dude,

OK, guys.

I will just go tot he store and grab the first wood glue from the shelf.

So if this is what you got from the advise. Maybe you should not have ask the question to begin with. It would have saved several people from waisting their time responding.

Rich

[soapbarstrat]

Actually, adding water to wood glue is an absolute no-no. It interferes with the chemical composition of the glue, resulting in the glue's inability to create a proper bond. Just more stuff I've read.

I've watched Dan Erlewine on tape use watered down titebond. Wish I could remember if it was a 50/50 mix or what. Anyway, thinned down enough that he was injecting it into thin cracks with a syringe. Just as I thought to myself " I wonder if that weakens the glue", he says something like " the water doesn't make the glue any less strong". The tape was also made 22 years ago, so I'm not saying it's a sound method. I don't know.

[Mattia]

...walk into the store and get the first bottle of fresh titebond original you can find (Google to find out how to read date codes).

All glues are not created equal. Titebond is one of the better AR glues, dries harder, but like all AR/PVA's, it has a shelf life of about a year, max. If it freezes, it's worthless. If it's older, it's worthelss. It gets thicker with age, dries 'chalky' (not clear), etc.

[DrummerDude]

I can't buy glues from the Titebond brand because they are not imported where I live. No one has ever heard of this brand here.

If the kind of glue used is not that important (at least this is what I got from this thread), I'll just buy any wood glue and use it.

Thanks

[Setch]

Email: international@FranklinInternational.com to find out where Titebond is available in your country. Alternatively, you could ask a user on here to buy some locally and mail it to you, or order some from one of the many european suppliers who offer a mail order service.

[Mickguard]

If the kind of glue used is not that important (at least this is what I got from this thread), I'll just buy any wood glue and use it.

There you go!

[DrummerDude]

Damn, I just learned that plastic glues tend to "creep".

I will not use plastic glues for laminating the neck and for gluing on the fingerboard.

Will use hide glue or epoxy instead... but... ...these may be too fragile for the job and crack.

I found a German wood glue, named "Moment". Seems that the thing hardens fast. Anyone tried it?

[Mattia]

Dude, seriously, don't worry about creep in this context. Pretty much all glue creeps. Titebond does as well, but literally millions of guitars have been built with it - including neck laminations - that are doing perfectly well now. It can creep, over time, and over a lot of strain.. The only reason some folks use epoxy for fingerboards instead of titebond tends to be moisture (epoxy isn't water based), which can cause fingerboards to shift/move.

All the glues mentioned are strong enough for the job, and unless your joints are absolutely flawless, and you can apply and clamp a neck lam in seconds (under 20), forget hide glue. The bottled version is useless.

Stop looking for a 'perfect' glue, and select a glue that's good enough for the job it needs to do. Titebond has proven over the past decades and millions of guitars that it is more than adequate enough for pretty much all the wood-to-wood joins involved in building an (electric) guitar, and pretty much every modern production electric guitar and acoustic guitar - including the vast majority of all custom shop and high-end custom electric guitars (in the acoustics worlds, more folks use hot hide), are built using titebond for the wood-to-wood joints. Some laminate with epoxy, some with poly, some with cascamite, but the ones who use titebond (or other yellow PVA glue) are certainly not falling apart.

I get the feeling you're losing sight of the big picture here; just build guitars, don't obsess about inconsequential details. You've got enough details to think about that matter a whole lot more. Think about what you use, but don't overthink. Know what the various advantages and disadvantages of various glues are, accept them, and then move on, and just use the darn stuff. Lots of experienced guys telling you titebond is good, even more empirical evidence underlining it, so why the hassle?

For the record: most hardware store epoxies stay gummier/more plasticky/less hard than titebond when dry. I doubt poly creeps much at all, but we've been through the disadvantages/advantages of various glue types.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Mattia

[DrummerDude]

Alright, copy that.

By the way, I am going to use beech for my neck-thru. It looks like it won't absorb much glue - it's very dense and there are almost no pores in it. I tlooks like it is denser than maple.

Will a PVA joint between two beech pieces creep more because of the low glue absorption and thus the thicker plastic layer between the two surfaces?

[fryovanni]

Damn, I just learned that plastic glues tend to "creep".

I will not use plastic glues for laminating the neck and for gluing on the fingerboard.

Will use hide glue or epoxy instead... but... ...these may be too fragile for the job and crack.

I found a German wood glue, named "Moment". Seems that the thing hardens fast. Anyone tried it?

You don't read the responces fully do you. If you did you would have noted that Titebond is a perfectly acceptable(and proven) to be one of the best choices in terms of a glue to use for guitar building. Now you are posting a message here that could lead people who read it to believe Titebond has a serious flaw and is not usable. Which is wrong.

For clarity this is the topic that this info in question is coming from-click

As far as using Titebond(or equivalent) on Beech. All wood is porous some is just finer and requires higher clamping pressure to get the glue into the pores effectively. Beech is not a particularly difficult wood to glue.

Peace,Rich

[TechArt]

Here's a few things I've picked up:

Gorilla Glue - this is a polyurethane glue. The main feature of this of interest to guitar builders is that you can sand it and it won't build up on the sandpaper like traditional aliphatic glues will (see below). It's a pain in the butt to deal with gorilla glue and is generally not worth the time.

Aliphatic glues - These include elmers wood glues and the tite bonds. When used properly, both brands have acceptable strengths. Elmers is generally not water resistant to any great degree. If I remember right, the main difference between the Titebond 1, 2, and 3, are in their environmental resistances. There are different ratings for resistance...Type 1, Type 2, etc....they basically indicate how permanent the bond is. Glues need to pass a series of tests in order to attain these classifications. The tests usually consist of boiling, heating, etc. and seeing if the joints delaminate. Titebond 2 has a type 2 water resistance. Titebond 3 has a type 3 (which means it is more resistant to delamination) but I believe that it also has slightly lower initial strength. Titebonds also have the added advantage of being RF ready (google "Radio Frequency Glue" for more info)

CA (aka super glue) - these come in a few different viscosities of interest to the guitar builder. "Gap filling" varieties are good for inlay & other applications where you might want to fill a gap. The thinner varieties result in less glue lines. CA is good stuff, but has limited application to guitar building because of it's short open time. Works good for flooding inlays...but most other tasks are generally left to aliphatics.

Good glue joints are dependent on flat surfaces, adequate pressure, set times and cure times.

As for the concerns about tone, there are many many things that matter much more to tone than your choice of glue. Choose the glue that allows you to perfect these things and that will affect your tone much more than the .001" layer of glue!

[rhoads56]

Yet another thread started, or taken over by Drummerdude, where he refuses to read replies by people who are respected around here, which has turned into a massive argument, when it should have been a two line reply, or better still, researched in any luthiery/woodworking book, or a quick search...

Why do people bother? Why do people try to help those, that dont want to help themselves?

[fryovanni]

CA (aka super glue) - these come in a few different viscosities of interest to the guitar builder. "Gap filling" varieties are good for inlay & other applications where you might want to fill a gap. The thinner varieties result in less glue lines. CA is good stuff, but has limited application to guitar building because of it's short open time. Works good for flooding inlays...but most other tasks are generally left to aliphatics.

Just a note; CA is not a strong gap filling glue(as a joining glue). Epoxy would be a good choice if you have gap to fill(in most situations). It is cool for spot filling(surface), and in situations where you have material that are very smooth(non porous) where Titebond will not work well. It is able to wick into fine cracks well. I would never use it to say set a neck as I have found it has limited strength in wood to wood joining applications.

[TechArt]

Doh! forgot about epoxy....Good comments fryovanni. Epoxy is also good stuff for gluing oily woods like rosewood.

CA (aka super glue) - these come in a few different viscosities of interest to the guitar builder. "Gap filling" varieties are good for inlay & other applications where you might want to fill a gap. The thinner varieties result in less glue lines. CA is good stuff, but has limited application to guitar building because of it's short open time. Works good for flooding inlays...but most other tasks are generally left to aliphatics.

Just a note; CA is not a strong gap filling glue(as a joining glue). Epoxy would be a good choice if you have gap to fill(in most situations). It is cool for spot filling(surface), and in situations where you have material that are very smooth(non porous) where Titebond will not work well. It is able to wick into fine cracks well. I would never use it to say set a neck as I have found it has limited strength in wood to wood joining applications.

[DrummerDude]

Yet another thread started, or taken over by Drummerdude, where he refuses to read replies by people who are respected around here, which has turned into a massive argument, when it should have been a two line reply, or better still, researched in any luthiery/woodworking book, or a quick search...

Why do people bother? Why do people try to help those, that dont want to help themselves?

You are wrong, I read the responses. And I am not arguing with anyone nor am i rejecting anybody's opinion.

Actually I can confirm what people are saying about that PVA glue "creep" thing.

My headstock looks like it's taking a walk lately. One year or more after it was glued that is. I thought that the slight displacement of the pieces in it was caused by humidity or temperature changes but the gutar never leaves my room and the humidity chages here are not very radical.

I didn't know that this movement was caused by the PVA glue and its quality to "creep".

Now I know.

Seems that he key is stronger clamping and better planer job before the actual gluing.

Thanks.

Edited March 10, 2007 by DrummerDude

[Jon]

Care to post pictures of the headstock? Maybe we can fix the issue.

[soapbarstrat]

More importantly, what exact brand of PVA glue did he use on that headstock ? I think he might be in Europe, so no wonder he has problems with glue. Last time I went to Germany, I took my damn bottle of Elmers carpenter glue with me, because the local crap glue works about as well as the adhesive on the back of a postage stamp, and I'm mainly just using the stuff for house repair work when I'm there. It ain't like here in the states where a new glue company can come along and take over the market. Seems like over there, if some aristocratic family owns a glue factory that makes crap glue, it's just too bad for anyone wanting good glue. You are stuck with the crap.

[Mattia]

More importantly, what exact brand of PVA glue did he use on that headstock ? I think he might be in Europe, so no wonder he has problems with glue. Last time I went to Germany, I took my damn bottle of Elmers carpenter glue with me, because the local crap glue works about as well as the adhesive on the back of a postage stamp, and I'm mainly just using the stuff for house repair work when I'm there. It ain't like here in the states where a new glue company can come along and take over the market. Seems like over there, if some aristocratic family owns a glue factory that makes crap glue, it's just too bad for anyone wanting good glue. You are stuck with the crap.

Amen to that.

It's telling, I feel, that every single shop that sells quality woodworking supplies stocks Franklin's line of adhesives (and possible some West or System 3 epoxies), first and foremost, and that it's never been recommended I use any Bison, Pattex, whatever wood glue. It's not any cheaper, but it is a lot lousier.