GregP Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Being able to sell something isn't a sign of anything except somehow knowing how to sell something. Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another doug Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 One thing.... $1500 is $500 cheaper than his 'base price'. The fact he sells EVERY guitar he finishes, within a couple weeks, says to me he is on to something. Can you say the same thing about your guitars?? Sure, you may not like it, but someone out there is sick of the usual mahogany/maple/alder/ash combinations, and will fall in love with that guitar. He is making a living doing something you can only dream of, good luck to him. That's very true. I didn't look into his base price, but I did know that $1500 is a very good price for a hand-made guitar; I just don't think that one is worth it (obviously some do, and power to them). I certainly respect him for being able to sell his guitars (and build up a very loyal following, apparently). Also, you are absolutely right that I am not at that level myself (note that I haven't posted any close-up pics of my guitars ). I actually like some of what Zachary's doing (the basic ideas, if not the execution, and certainly not the ridiculous hype). It just struck me as strange that he would brag about how cheap the top was, and then ask someone to give him a lot of money for it (I apparently can't write a sentence without parentheses!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 It just struck me as strange that he would brag about how cheap the top was, and then ask someone to give him a lot of money for it (I apparently can't write a sentence without parentheses!). I see it more as "look at this, lets do something different, and show everyone you dont need access to 5A maple to make a nice guitar" I paid $400 (aussie, so thats about $300 US) for seven 5A flame, 1" (or thicker) bookmatched tops. Does that means i should charge my clients less, or is this a 'bonus'?? Even if he used $100 mahogany body blanks, what should the overall price difference be to the client? Who are we to even discuss his pricing methods? How many 'ikea top' style bodies did he make before he found the right laminations of timber that sounded the way he'd hoped? Who here has done enough sonic experiements to say if this guitar will even sound nice or not with that selection of timber and laminations?? Right... I had a teenage clown on the phone today (well, im assuming he was a teenager), who reckoned i was charging too much for a refret on his chinese squire, because 'fret wire is only $10, and i could learn how to do it myself if i really wanted to'. I told him to go and try, and wished him luck. If you think Zachary is charging too much, walk a mile in his shoes, develop a site and 'fan base' over years and years, and THEN come tell me if you are still going to discount a guitar just because some one doesnt like your headstock/body shape, hype, website, opinions. You may still have the same opinion, but that will mean you dont eat anything but noodles for the rest of your life. Regardless of any luthiers personal opinion, web presence, ideas on timber and body shapes (or marketting), the proof is how the instruments play and sound. Ive not even played a Zachary, but i would like to. Some of his ideas i disagree with, but im sure he disagrees with me on other items too. The fact is, he has buyers waiting for his guitars (and repeat buyers too!), and is making a living from what he loves. That says to me he knows a little more than someone who is still struggling to make ends meet in this business... and there are MANY MANY luthiers who are struggling to make a living out there. Find a disatisfied Zachary player. I can see a lot of impressive reviews here: http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews...Zachary+Guitars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 His site is riddled with dissatisfied buyers. He puts them into his "idiots" page and then mocks them. The fact that he even HAS an idiots page (and mocks people right on his homepage) completely negates any semblance of "professionalism" that you're trying to ascribe to him. I don't wanna pick at each of your points, none of which are exactly "facts," but here's one that stuck out: The reference to satisfied customers at Harmony Central. A ) Harmony Central's user reviews are positively notorious for unreliability, so it'd be a moot point already; but more importantly B ) I read most [edit: all, just went back to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke out of my butt without the FULL picture] of the reviews. They are all written by the same person. Probably Alex. You're an expert in guitars, but I'm an expert in writing style... these are all the same person, without a doubt. Disgusting. I'm honestly boggled at the level of support you're putting behind this guy, but this will quickly escalate into a full a debate I guess, and I'm not sure either of us care enough to bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
another doug Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I see it more as "look at this, lets do something different, and show everyone you dont need access to 5A maple to make a nice guitar" I would see it that way too, except he called it an "amazingly figured top," not a "knotty butcherblock that proves flamed maple isn't necessary." As far as the pricing is concerned, all I'm saying is it's not worth that to me. My original post about the price was more harshly worded, but that's what I was getting at. If someone else wants to buy the ikea guitar, they won't need to push me out of the way. I'm certainly not trying to tell you or Zachary how to price your guitars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 His site is riddled with dissatisfied buyers. He puts them into his "idiots" page and then mocks them. The fact that he even HAS an idiots page (and mocks people right on his homepage) completely negates any semblance of "professionalism" that you're trying to ascribe to him. Sorry, i see a lot of emails coming from clowns who have nothing better to do, but no comments from anyone who has ACTUALLY PURCHASED HIS STUFF. Maybe i missed it. Please forward an example. I dont think i ever referred to him as professional acting, but he can certainly build a guitar, consistantly, regardless of if you like the timbers he chooses or not. I don't wanna pick at each of your points, none of which are exactly "facts," but here's one that stuck out: The reference to satisfied customers at Harmony Central. A ) Harmony Central's user reviews are positively notorious for unreliability, so it'd be a moot point already; but more importantly B ) I read most [edit: all, just went back to make sure I wasn't blowing smoke out of my butt without the FULL picture] of the reviews. They are all written by the same person. Probably Alex. You're an expert in guitars, but I'm an expert in writing style... these are all the same person, without a doubt. Disgusting. Well, i didnt read the reviews, just scanned them. Either way, i dont care I'm honestly boggled at the level of support you're putting behind this guy, but this will quickly escalate into a full a debate I guess, and I'm not sure either of us care enough to bother. you're right, i dont want that Just sick of seeing people having a go at others who are quite obviously content with themselves and what they do. I dont see Zach ripping anyone off, people CHOOSE to buy his stuff. He doesnt come in here and have a go at any newbs, or try to sell his stuff in the classifieds. I see no structural faults in his guitars, but maybe ive missed some in my scans of them. What he is doing is totally different to some hack who CANT build but is passing himself off as someone who can (no need to point fingers, but they hang out here). He has a niche, and buyers. Regardless, the last time someone mouthed off on the net about how MY guitars were pieces of crap, bla bla (guy lived in a country id never shipped to, so not sure how he sampled one), it led to two sales. True that even negative publicity is still great. So, i guess, you guys should really let him have it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I would see it that way too, except he called it an "amazingly figured top," not a "knotty butcherblock that proves flamed maple isn't necessary." I think you'll find he was being very sarcastic in his message... FYI: Pre-internet books talk about knots as 'figuring', deviating grain line, flame, quilt, birdseye, etc all fall into the catagory too. In fact, you could even class figuring as 'defect'. These days, figuring has all of a sudden become 5A maple, and highly desirable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Sorry, i see a lot of emails coming from clowns who have nothing better to do, but no comments from anyone who has ACTUALLY PURCHASED HIS STUFF. Maybe i missed it. Please forward an example. I dont think i ever referred to him as professional acting, but he can certainly build a guitar, consistantly, regardless of if you like the timbers he chooses or not. Yup, you're right and I'm wrong. Not sarcastically. I just had a look and he didn't post any actual customer complaints there. My mistake. Well, i didnt read the reviews, just scanned them. Either way, i dont care You may not care, but surely you can see why writing reviews of your own guitars is not proof of any customers at all, never mind satisfied ones. Couldn't Google any other reviews that weren't written by him either. Just sick of seeing people having a go at others who are quite obviously content with themselves and what they do. Whoah the bus there. Being able to criticize someone or find fault in their methodology, approach, marketing scheme, or whatever is not analagous to a luthiery inferiority complex. I can watch a movie and think, "What the heck was this director thinking? Worst movie ever! And the acting sucked." But that doesn't mean that I'm secretly sad that I've failed as a movie director or that I'm jealous that I'm not at least as good an actor as Keanu Reeves. I've never even TRIED to be either, and I'm not discontent that I'm neither. I'll leave it there for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Well, i didnt read the reviews, just scanned them. Either way, i dont care You may not care, but surely you can see why writing reviews of your own guitars is not proof of any customers at all, never mind satisfied ones. Couldn't Google any other reviews that weren't written by him either. Ive had magazines contact ME, asking to review my stuff, on the condition i pay $700-1500 for a small advertisement in the same issue. Sure, i do agree its morally incorrect to post up harmony central reviews of your own gear (and i see no proof he has done that, only accusations), but isnt it the same of gibson/prs/fender/asia spending many many thousands of dollars supporting publications that do simular? Just sick of seeing people having a go at others who are quite obviously content with themselves and what they do. Whoah the bus there. Being able to criticize someone or find fault in their methodology, approach, marketing scheme, or whatever is not analagous to a luthiery inferiority complex. I can watch a movie and think, "What the heck was this director thinking? Worst movie ever! And the acting sucked." But that doesn't mean that I'm secretly sad that I've failed as a movie director or that I'm jealous that I'm not at least as good an actor as Keanu Reeves. I've never even TRIED to be either, and I'm not discontent that I'm neither. Point taken, fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I honestly don't think it takes a genius to see that they're in all likelihood written by the same guy and that the writing style matches that of the website and incidentally a few of his website customer reviews. I guess we'll have to agree without proof we each just have our own perspectives, but I invite you to read the reviews and the website and reach your own honest conclusion. In terms of morality, I agree-- it's not any worse than writing your own review in a magazine as a reward for buying advertising space. I find that to be reprehensible, too. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 say wat u will about all the stuff he says and wat not but you cant say that this isn't cool (maybe apart from the shape) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 say wat u will about all the stuff he says and wat not but you cant say that this isn't cool (maybe apart from the shape) People aren't arguing that his designs and work are crap, just his methodology and hype are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) say wat u will about all the stuff he says and wat not but you cant say that this isn't cool (maybe apart from the shape) People aren't arguing that his designs and work are crap, just his methodology and hype are. Well, quite; you'll note the prominent quote of mine on his front page says nothing about the quality of his instruments per se (which I don't like in terms of design aesthetic, by and large). It's his marketing hype and general attitude towards building, and more importantly towards other builders that I cannot admire. It may very well be 'rock star', or whatever, but it rubs me the wrong way, every time. It may be 'genius marketing', but I've written and translated enough marketing copy to know what kind of nonsense and hyperbole goes into that. The measure of a person's success, to me, is not financial or sales success. It has to do with commitment, respect for and from your peers, the ability to admit you don't know it all, a certain degree of humility. Product quality is important, but attitude moreso. Of course, I'm not trying to build professionally, nor do I want to. It's a passion for me, but it is 'just' a hobby. If Zach's making a decent living building and selling, and that's what he wants to do, all the more power to him. But it ain't gonna make me respect him. Edited February 24, 2007 by Mattia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 People aren't arguing that his designs and work are crap, just his methodology and hype are. yeah i know just looks pretty sick his got some pretty cool figure in some of them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 I honestly don't think it takes a genius to see that they're in all likelihood written by the same guy and that the writing style matches that of the website and incidentally a few of his website customer reviews. Sorry Greg, I just don't buy it. I've looked through them all--some of those reviews date back 7 years. In fact, I just discovered that the Ikea guitar itself was built in 2000! I can understand that this guy inspires some extreme reactions here, but you're really going too far-- there is nothing there to suggest that the same person wrote ALL of these reviews. You'll have to show me the writing hooks--the repeating words, phrases, etc. About the only thing I get from these reviews is that for the most part his customers are fairly literate people who are able to construct full sentences with proper pronunciation. Something that's fairly rare with Harmony Central reviews. It's easy enough to check out--nearly all of the reviews list an email address, presumably the addresses on the more recent reviews should still be current. Write to these people, find out if they're real (you'll be able to tell if they all come from the same source by checking the header). Then come back with this accusation. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by that. You're usually so fair. Why does Zachary put the bug up your butt? As for the $1500 price thing--that's a crock of bull. The wood on ANY guitar is a negligible part of the final cost. A Fender MIA would cost me 1000 euros here --the wood probably cost Fender 20 euros. A Gibson would cost me 2000 euros --and the wood probably cost them 40 bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 say wat u will about all the stuff he says and wat not but you cant say that this isn't cool (maybe apart from the shape) Actually, I think that one IS pretty cool. But the whole thing is a contradiction in terms of what he's been about this whole time. Building another Tele copy? I thought he was sticking it to the man! Has he actually sanded all the tool marks out of this one? ***? If it had a neck made with a proper taper, I'd probably buy it. Yes, *I* would pay $1500 for that guitar. Oh wait, he's put my quote from this site and my full name from an email I sent him (with no reply back from him) on his "idiots" page. Guess I'll have to give my money to someone who wants to sell me a guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksound Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Just a couple of thoughts: -Dano copy body. Nothing special there. Pickup placement looks awkward. -24 fret neck that joins the body at the 14th. Why? That would make it playable up to about 19 before I couldn't reach any farther. Made that way for balance? -Pickguard is positioned in a way that for my playing style is nearly useless. Don't know if I could do better, but these are things I look at as a player. I wouldn't buy it no matter how it sounds, because it looks uncomfortable and awkward. .02, free of charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) My only issue here is that new builders will get some poor information regarding construction methods. I would note he is not the only source for misleading information(many companies do the same). It just kills me when I see the next guy ask a question on this board that seems plain silly, noting he got his information from a site like his. Something like "I need to refinish my Jackson with oil because the plastic finish is killing the tone, Anyone know where to buy oil". This is my only issue, but then again maybe he is right. Maybe most pro builders(including you Perry) have been killing your tone and "soaking up all the resonance" on their guitars for years with sub-par methods and materials. Perry, Have a look at this page-Page. If you saw a person post this information on this site or if you saw a responce to a question using this info. Would you allow it to go unchallenged as fact? How would you respond if someone offered critique on one of your guitars based on this information? He is selling his guitars, and I am sure they are lovely instruments. I have no issue with pricing(I think he is quite reasonable) or any of that. I don't even take issue with methods or materials he uses. I just hate his information that states other methods will make your guitar sound like dung. The guy is totally free to say what he wants, so maybe I should just drop it. Peace,Rich Edited February 24, 2007 by fryovanni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Well I like this one... http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm and this one is really nice. http://www.zacharyguitars.com/121206pics.htm Some of his stuff is a little funky with those different hunks of wood guitars....looks a little cheap almost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Sorry Greg, I just don't buy it. I've looked through them all--some of those reviews date back 7 years. In fact, I just discovered that the Ikea guitar itself was built in 2000! What does the time have to do with it? If anything, the fact that his "company" goes back so far and yet doesn't seem to have any legitimate reviews online (forget Harmony Central for a moment and try to do a Google...) is worrisome and further evidence against--and not for--the legitimacy of his business and client base. I can understand that this guy inspires some extreme reactions here, but you're really going too far-- there is nothing there to suggest that the same person wrote ALL of these reviews. You'll have to show me the writing hooks--the repeating words, phrases, etc. About the only thing I get from these reviews is that for the most part his customers are fairly literate people who are able to construct full sentences with proper pronunciation. Something that's fairly rare with Harmony Central reviews.I AM basing it on hooks and repeated motifs, not to mention vocabulary. Each review I read, I would read a sentence and say, "whoah, sounds familiar". For example, the pattern by which the features are illuminated. The over-use of adjectives. The fact that each review calls him "Alex the genius" or "Alex the master". The very structure in which the praise is presented. The phrases which amount to, "some people may not buy into <design feature X>, but I'm sold on it!" that persistently dot the reviews, the same way he tries to defend his own design features on the website. There are some almost identical phrases used in many of his "letters," and those letters invariably praise Alex for the same things. This guy has a high self-opinion, or a crushingly low one that manifests itself in these fake letters. I'm sorry Mick, but it's really very obvious. It's so obvious to me that it's painful to try to illuminate it. It's like saying the sky is blue and having someone ask you to prove it. It's so self-evident that it seems like a waste of time to bother with the proof part because it's dripping from every sentence. How to choose which sentences are proof? It's easy enough to check out--nearly all of the reviews list an email address, presumably the addresses on the more recent reviews should still be current. Write to these people, find out if they're real (you'll be able to tell if they all come from the same source by checking the header). Then come back with this accusation. As far as I know, hotmail and aol e-mail don't include regional IP header information since they're sourced from a central server where the web-based client is hosted. Is it REALLY going to make you happy if I write to a bunch of people? And what does it prove? Frankly, I'm kind of surprised by that. You're usually so fair. Why does Zachary put the bug up your butt? I'm surprised you're surprised. But for the record, you have no reason to be ...he doesn't have a plug up my butt. My comments ARE fair... I don't mind being one of those standing up and saying "The emporer has no clothes" but it's really circumstantial that I've been pulled into saying it more than once. My comments are primarily simple counter-arguments ... I'm not forwarding any sort of agenda of my own. I'd be quite happy to say my piece about it and move on, actually. This post, for instance, is simply in response to some direct questions to me individually. I don't wanna just ignore you, Mick! That's not in my character. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickguard Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 If you saw a person post this information on this site or if you saw a responce to a question using this info. Would you allow it to go unchallenged as fact? The thing is with this kind of thing is a lot, if not most of it is pure opinion. And that's why for every Zachary railing against anything other than oil finishes, you'll get another sniffing at any other than nitro.... it's all part of the marketing game. And you can't save the whole world from being suckers. Hell, look at the audiophile community... On the other hand, what's nice about this forum is that people are quick to separate the voodoo from the hoodoo. I once asked about Zachary's headstock, because I like the look of it. I'm still planning on trying it out for myself down the line. At which point I'll know first hand whether it works for me or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 The designs are basic, the structure is basic. If you know your P's and Q's in basic woodworking, ie. tight glue joints and clean workmanship then they are fairly easy and inexpensive guitars to build. The headstocks are basic, no finagling around with scarf joints, headstock wings etc. No involved finishing with the exception of a little oil rubbed in. IMO, can't justify a base price of $2000 for such a basic guitar. My first build involved a similar headstock design, albeit an arrowhead rather than a samurai, and that is the secret to how these guitars play. Straight thru strings to the tuners with no sideways bends (like an angled headstock) and little break angle makes for a slinky feel. My headstock is a 3/3 design, I use 3 string trees and it has the dished side profile of a strat headstock exactly like these Zachary guitars. Which strings do you bend the most when playing? Usually the 3rd and 4th strings for me. They are the longest strings with this sort of setup. That headstock style, I call it Gibson/Fender hybrid renders any guitar extremely playable. I found that with angled headstocks string bending is inherently more difficult. Strings are angled down and sideways away from the nut which basically takes away much of the string's useable length when it comes to bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCH Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 The designs are basic, the structure is basic. If you know your P's and Q's in basic woodworking, ie. tight glue joints and clean workmanship then they are fairly easy and inexpensive guitars to build. The headstocks are basic, no finagling around with scarf joints, headstock wings etc. No involved finishing with the exception of a little oil rubbed in. IMO, can't justify a base price of $2000 for such a basic guitar. I don't think what you mentioned above is really valid criteria for justifying (or not justifying) price. I build furniture as a hobby. When I look online at some nice handbuilt pieces of furniture I see some pretty astronomical prices. The prices don't reflect the cost of materials or labour. But some people pay these high prices because it satisfies their need (whatever it may be; elitism, wanting something not regularly found etc.). Or look at some very exclusive cars that cost a million or more, the cost does not reflect the cost of materials or labour. But buyers are willing to go on waiting lists after they have been deemed worthy to own these elite cars. Also IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlGeeEater Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 (edited) I don't think what you mentioned above is really valid criteria for justifying (or not justifying) price. I build furniture as a hobby. When I look online at some nice handbuilt pieces of furniture I see some pretty astronomical prices. The prices don't reflect the cost of materials or labour. But some people pay these high prices because it satisfies their need (whatever it may be; elitism, wanting something not regularly found etc.). Or look at some very exclusive cars that cost a million or more, the cost does not reflect the cost of materials or labour. But buyers are willing to go on waiting lists after they have been deemed worthy to own these elite cars. Also IMO I think the point Southpa is trying to make is why would you spend $2,000 on such a basic guitar, from some no name chump on the internet? The buyer could spend that money on a PRS, but I guess Zachary guitars are a lot better and cheaper than PRS. I dunno. If the guitar cost him 500 to build in materials, what justifies that extra 1,500 in his pocket? Labor? Yeah right, I wouldn't pay him +$40 an hour to build me a guitar that's for sure. Although, I don't feel right speaking for Southpa, but this post is basically all my opinion. Chris Edited February 24, 2007 by AlGeeEater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted February 24, 2007 Report Share Posted February 24, 2007 Well I like this one... http://www.zacharyguitars.com/071199pics.htm and this one is really nice. http://www.zacharyguitars.com/121206pics.htm Some of his stuff is a little funky with those different hunks of wood guitars....looks a little cheap almost? The SG's not bad (but, erm, a gibson copy, essentially), but...is it me, or is that 'wraparound' nothing more than a tunomatic stop tailpiece? No intonation adjustment whatsoever? Maybe his magickal calibrated strings make it unnecessary, and I know that pre-compensated bridges (simple wraparounds) can work perfectly well, but that's just a bit confusing. Otherwise, other than the forever unappealing (and to my mind poor) headstock design, it's a slick guitar. Don't much like the second one, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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