nothinggod_bassist Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Hello people I am looking for some advice on a project I am looking into at the moment. My project is this, an 8-string single course, 36-fret bass, Tuning BEADGCFA#. I have a piece of Jarrah, an Australian hardwood which is glued in 3cm sections and used to be part of a counter in a bank. I am pretty sure this will have to be recut and glued due to the age and previous use of the piece. I intend to use this as the side wings of the bass. I propose to use a neck through construction consisting of Zebrano(Zebrawood) and Purpleheart. I pretty much have my mind set on using the Zebrano but I am wondering if the Purpleheart is dense enough in combination with the other woods. Also note that I am not intending to have a fingerboard wood. I am wondering what thoughts and opinions any of you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 Conklin uses Wenge and Purpleheart for their mass-produced 7-string basses, Purpleheart is an extremely dense wood and is a great choice for neck laminates. I would personally not use Zebrawood as the wood seems to shift a fair amount over time, it just doesn't seem like a good idea to use it as a neck laminate. Why no fingerboard? You will need a truss-rod to adjust the neck, and it would be very smart to use 2 for a neck with 8 or more strings. It would also be smart to use carbon fiber rods along with 2 truss rods for the most strength possible. An important thing to keep note of is that the neck will be very wide, and the headstock will be quite long. With this extra weight along with the weight of the tuners, it would be very smart to use hipshot ultralite tuners or attempt to go the headless route. If you do not, it will be very neck heavy and will be troublesome to play standing (assuming you gig or play standing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothinggod_bassist Posted March 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I'm not actually going to luthier this project but I am going to source the wood and provide a lot of input on the build. I am definitely going to have a twin truss rod and the fingerboard will be a cutaway of the neck laminate. I plan to have all hipshot hardware including the individual bridge setup. As for the Zebrawood, I have seen Conklin use it in some of their builds I think with Bubinga. So now I am wondering in sourcing the wood, and assuming that I am going to use Zebrawood, should I look for a piece that has been preaged? The reasons I want Zebrawood are that since Purpleheart and Jarrah are both very dense I want something that will be slightly less so and give some resonance to the bass. It is also an aesthetic thing too, obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I'm not actually going to luthier this project but I am going to source the wood and provide a lot of input on the build. I am definitely going to have a twin truss rod and the fingerboard will be a cutaway of the neck laminate. I plan to have all hipshot hardware including the individual bridge setup. As for the Zebrawood, I have seen Conklin use it in some of their builds I think with Bubinga. So now I am wondering in sourcing the wood, and assuming that I am going to use Zebrawood, should I look for a piece that has been preaged? The reasons I want Zebrawood are that since Purpleheart and Jarrah are both very dense I want something that will be slightly less so and give some resonance to the bass. It is also an aesthetic thing too, obviously. I find it kinda interesting that you are sourcing wood for a luthier to build this project. To me what I know about wood and wood selection(as well as proper care, aging and prep) is a big part of my building. Yet you choose to not have your luthier use his/her knowledge in this area. Any reason in particular? Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted March 18, 2007 Report Share Posted March 18, 2007 I am also curious. On a different note, less dense does not equate more resonant. I built a 9-lam neck that is quite resonant (very strong vibration from tapping it) using rosewood, maple, purpleheart, and wenge. You can never go wrong with maple, that would is great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiurge Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I find it kinda interesting that you are sourcing wood for a luthier to build this project. To me what I know about wood and wood selection(as well as proper care, aging and prep) is a big part of my building. Yet you choose to not have your luthier use his/her knowledge in this area. Any reason in particular? Peace,Rich There seem to be a lot of build threads where the instrument has some unusual/technically unsound aspect about it, where the builder says, "well, that's what the client wanted" or "the client likes it so it should be okay." Maybe the luthier is afraid to lose the business altogether if they question or shoot down a client's idea. But for the Zebrano itself, even if you use a properly dried piece as a laminate in a thick, multilam neck, it may still "move?" I'm still green for the most part, but I thought that Zebrano was one of the heavier/sturdier woods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I find it kinda interesting that you are sourcing wood for a luthier to build this project. To me what I know about wood and wood selection(as well as proper care, aging and prep) is a big part of my building. Yet you choose to not have your luthier use his/her knowledge in this area. Any reason in particular? Peace,Rich There seem to be a lot of build threads where the instrument has some unusual/technically unsound aspect about it, where the builder says, "well, that's what the client wanted" or "the client likes it so it should be okay." Maybe the luthier is afraid to lose the business altogether if they question or shoot down a client's idea. But for the Zebrano itself, even if you use a properly dried piece as a laminate in a thick, multilam neck, it may still "move?" I'm still green for the most part, but I thought that Zebrano was one of the heavier/sturdier woods. I am not sure if you were asking me, but since you quoted my question. Zebrano(it goes by Zebrawood in my neck of the woods). Will stabalize after it is well dried. Zebrano has a high shrinkage rate from green to dry, and there is about a five perecnt difference in rates from radial to tangential shrinkage(so it can be unpredictable before it is fully dried). It is also a wood that you should pay more attension to grain orientaion on so that the above average difference in shrinkage does not bite you in the rear. Examples; Genuine Mahogany has top notch stability because of it's mild shrinkage numbers. Rad to Tang VS Volume 3% to 5% VS 8% Zebrano has a higher volumetric and a greater difference in ratio from rad to tan. Rad to Tang VS Volume 7% to 12% VS 17% For the sake of reference. Here is Hard Maple and Alder a couple other commonly used woods. Hard Maple Rad to Tang VS Volume 5% to 10% VS 15% Alder Rad to Tang VS Volume 4% to 7% VS 12% These are just drying averages(probably most useful to people drying and milling wood, but relate to us in the stability sense). You should keep in mind that these are based on the change in wood from a green state (better than 30% moisture) to a fairly dry 8-12%. That is the time that wood will see the greatest shrinkage. After it has been fully dried once it will never be able to accept moisture as well and it becomes significantly more stable. During that drying process you have the potential to build internal stresses(due to uneven drying rates, and well the uneven nature of how water wicks out of wood). These stresses may be relieved by cracking, or may balance back out as the wood dries to final dimension. However sometimes these stresses effect the wood after we cut it closer to dimension(modify the structural balance), and of course there is also the chance moisture deeper in the wood may be trapped by case hardening if it has been kiln dried to rapidly. Moral of the story. Let the wood have time to dry. Allow it time to react after being freshly cut or even glued. When you recieve wood weight and sticker it(till it has had time to aclimate to your shop). All it takes is time and patience to avoid problems with your guitar. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demiurge Posted March 19, 2007 Report Share Posted March 19, 2007 I was just kind of throwing the question out there, but thank you, Rich, that was a very helpful answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothinggod_bassist Posted March 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) I find it kinda interesting that you are sourcing wood for a luthier to build this project. To me what I know about wood and wood selection(as well as proper care, aging and prep) is a big part of my building. Yet you choose to not have your luthier use his/her knowledge in this area. Any reason in particular? Peace,Rich Firstly I already have the wood for the body wings, the Jarrah. One of the reasons I want to source the wood is that I have a very good idea of what I want, and what I am going to use it for. The way I see it is that I am not an amature looking for a nice piece of furniture just because I am a collector, but I am looking for a particular type of thing that I will use as a working instrument. From experience, playing different instruments with different woods I have an idea of which woods I think will have a certain tone and feel to them. As far as sourcing the wood I want to take any compromise on the luthier's part out of the equation. Either the luthier can do this build or they can't. I would like to have this thing made but I'm not going to compromise on it. I will use as much advice as I can get in making a selection on the wood including the luthier who makes this instrument, but at the end of the day I at least want to be there to say, yes that is the wood I want on this. after that I am leaving preparation and so on in the builder's hands, with the exception of my consultation on design and such. I see it like this, if I am called to play a session and a come to the session and say, "well I will only play this scale in that key and I think that because I can play it and so on you just have to take it my way and like it", chances are I won't be too popular. Some people were saying something about luthiers saying "well it's what the customer wanted" I guess you guys could build a lot of instruments to sit in your loungerooms and look pretty but at the end of the day if you want to sell them you have to strive to give the customer what they want, especially when the customer knows what they want. Also thanks for the advice there, Rich. Edited March 20, 2007 by nothinggod_bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) I think the point people are trying to make is that luthiers know far better than any ordinary guitarist how a piece of wood in the rough will work out, in terms of dimensions, shrinkage, moisture rates, stability, potential tone, figure, weight. Because they have experience. The luthier (if they have any real experience) would have a far better idea of this than you, because quite simply, how many guitars have you taken from wood to finished instrument? To use your session analogy - it's like you being called up to a recording session as a guitarist, then playing all the other instruments because you think you're better than the other musicians, even though you've never picked up a bass or played drums in your life. Just as an aside, how many guitars with Jarrah, purpleheart, and/or zebrano have you owned or played? I'm curious. Also, 1.25 inch wide sections of Jarrah would equal around a 12 piece body.....you're scrap taking wood from a bank counter and you're worried about compromise on the luthier's part? Joker. Edited March 20, 2007 by Supernova9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothinggod_bassist Posted March 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 (edited) I think the point people are trying to make is that luthiers know far better than any ordinary guitarist how a piece of wood in the rough will work out, in terms of dimensions, shrinkage, moisture rates, stability, potential tone, figure, weight. Because they have experience. The luthier (if they have any real experience) would have a far better idea of this than you, because quite simply, how many guitars have you taken from wood to finished instrument? To use your session analogy - it's like you being called up to a recording session as a guitarist, then playing all the other instruments because you think you're better than the other musicians, even though you've never picked up a bass or played drums in your life. Just as an aside, how many guitars with Jarrah, purpleheart, and/or zebrano have you owned or played? I'm curious. Also, 1.25 inch wide sections of Jarrah would equal around a 12 piece body.....you're scrap taking wood from a bank counter and you're worried about compromise on the luthier's part? Joker. On the contrary, you missed my point about the session completely. If I am hired to do something for someone I'm not going to dictate to them how to compose a piece of music even if I can analyse and theorise music more than they can. I am going to do my best to play what they want. Much in the same way I expect, and given I am going to be paying good money for this project, that the luthier will do their best to accomodate me and give me what I want. I really am not interested in what some certain individual here thinks they would and wouldn't do. All I wanted was some advice on what kind of combination those woods might make together. I have played plenty of instuments made of zebrano and purpleheart, tobias and alembic to name a few, incidentally, but I see your point, hence my asking for opinions. I wasn't looking for your critique of my methodology at all though, thanks. Also try reading, it's a bass, not a guitar, which makes me a bass player. The so called scrap piece of wood you are refering to, is something you haven't seen incidentally so where you have any room to call me a joker I don't know. As for any of that other crap, I have no intention of doing anything with the wood other than making sure I approve of the wood selected. I don't want to rock up to see my bass being built and the guy says oh well sorry I just decided that I'm not going to use zebrano, I think I will use ash instead. It's my money and my bass just like if i was being paid on a session it's the producer or songwriter's music. How many forums do I have to visit though where some super sensitive hero has to try and use insults in place of objective and constructive discourse? Can the moderator do something about this stupidity? Oh yeah, and I play drums bass guitar and keys all quite well thanks, I also sing. Edited March 20, 2007 by nothinggod_bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supernova9 Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 On the contrary, you missed my point about the session completely. If I am hired to do something for someone I'm not going to dictate to them how to compose a piece of music even if I can analyse and theorise music more than they can. I am going to do my best to play what they want. Much in the same way I expect, and given I am going to be paying good money for this project, that the luthier will do their best to accomodate me and give me what I want. I really am not interested in what some certain individual here thinks they would and wouldn't do. All I wanted was some advice on what kind of combination those woods might make together. I have played plenty of instuments made of zebrano and purpleheart, tobias and alembic to name a few, incidentally, but I see your point, hence my asking for opinions. I wasn't looking for your critique of my methodology at all though, thanks. Also try reading, it's a bass, not a guitar, which makes me a bass player. The so called scrap piece of wood you are refering to, is something you haven't seen incidentally so where you have any room to call me a joker I don't know. As for any of that other crap, I have no intention of doing anything with the wood other than making sure I approve of the wood selected. I don't want to rock up to see my bass being built and the guy says oh well sorry I just decided that I'm not going to use zebrano, I think I will use ash instead. It's my money and my bass just like if i was being paid on a session it's the producer or songwriter's music. How many forums do I have to visit though where some super sensitive hero has to try and use insults in place of objective and constructive discourse? Can the moderator do something about this stupidity? Oh yeah, and I play drums bass guitar and keys all quite well thanks, I also sing. I think the only 'super sensitive hero' here is you. Chill out. If you've played basses with Zebrano and purpleheart and liked them, then go for it. Think about it, if alembic make basses from purpleheart, why are you asking questions about it's density and suitability for guitar making on a distinctly hobby-builder site? Congratulations on being able to sing as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fryovanni Posted March 20, 2007 Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 All I wanted was some advice on what kind of combination those woods might make together. I can understand why you would be asking this of us if you have not lined up your Luthier yet. You want this to be a special Bass, that you have a lot of direct involvement in. That makes sense. When you find the right Luthier, and by "right" I mean someone who is skilled, and not a knucklehead built 5 guitar hobbiest or wannabe guitar tech that does set ups off and on at your local music store(no offense to highly skilled techs that have building experience). You should discuss your thinking on wood selection, design and so forth with that person. Don't rely on random bits of info you pick up along the way. Use the knowledge and experience they bring to the plate. That is how you will get a fine instrument. They will know what will make a differnce in the overall sound, reliability, and playability of your bass. Much of the info you get will need to be put in perspective as to its actual impact(many things make little or no difference, and some can pose real poor performance). Put your faith in their experience(if you don't trust them find someone else, because you need that trust). Have fun with it, and good luck with your recording. Peace,Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothinggod_bassist Posted March 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2007 All I wanted was some advice on what kind of combination those woods might make together. I can understand why you would be asking this of us if you have not lined up your Luthier yet. You want this to be a special Bass, that you have a lot of direct involvement in. That makes sense. When you find the right Luthier, and by "right" I mean someone who is skilled, and not a knucklehead built 5 guitar hobbiest or wannabe guitar tech that does set ups off and on at your local music store(no offense to highly skilled techs that have building experience). You should discuss your thinking on wood selection, design and so forth with that person. Don't rely on random bits of info you pick up along the way. Use the knowledge and experience they bring to the plate. That is how you will get a fine instrument. They will know what will make a differnce in the overall sound, reliability, and playability of your bass. Much of the info you get will need to be put in perspective as to its actual impact(many things make little or no difference, and some can pose real poor performance). Put your faith in their experience(if you don't trust them find someone else, because you need that trust). Have fun with it, and good luck with your recording. Peace,Rich Cheers, Rich. Of course I am not pinning all my hopes on what is said on some internet forum, but I was hoping to find some ideas and opinions, albeit objectively and constructively given, from as many sources as possible. Obviously I am not going into this build with a hobbyist builder in mind. I have one or two in mind that I have also been in contact with already and they both have a good record of custom builds. I also know that the internet is full of people that like to argue about nonsense just for the sake of it. But then again there are some people out there that are worth sharing ideas with. By the way, Supernova I never asked about the suitability of purpleheart for instrument building I was asking if it would be a dense enough wood for a neck-through construction to use with zebrano. I have played instruments that have purpleheart neck-through constructions but they are usually with ash. Anyway, that said I have pretty much got what I wanted out of this thread. Thanks everyone, especially Rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nothinggod_bassist Posted March 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2007 (edited) This kind of makes the whole thread redundant really, but I looked up Conklin's custom options and guess what? They have an option for purpleheart and zebrawood neck construction. Also I found this; http://www.tradingbasses.com/webalbumtradingbasses_027.htm Edited March 28, 2007 by nothinggod_bassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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