A Little Discovery

[mikhailgtrski]

I finally got around to making the brazilian rosewood "stopbar" thingy for my PRS clone (similar to the TOM/string-through setup on Myka's).

Up to this point the strings have been breaking over the saddles and going straight to the ferrules. The string section past the saddle on the G has been producing some unwanted sympathetic overtones on notes played around the 10th fret, and the guitar has been overall just a little brighter than I expected.

Anyway, after fitting the "stopbar" there were several rather noticeable changes: 1) the bad overtones went away (shifted about an octave up the neck and aren't a problem anymore). 2) The overall tone is richer and better balanced, and the low strings have developed a nice Les Paul-ish roundness that wasn't there before. 3) It now plays/feels more like a shorter scale instrument (it's 25 1/2")... as if the tension has been decreased a bit, and the strings feel like they have more give. 4) Not sure, but it seems to have just a tiny bit more resonance. The sustain is just as good as before.

#1 was expected, the rest are pleasant surprises. I'm guessing that the change in feel is due a combination of the slightly reduced string length between the bridge and the stopbar, and a slightly shallower break angle over the saddles. Perhaps the rosewood has something to do with it as well?

Interested to hear your experiences and theories...

Mike

[Southpa]

I would think its a result of lifting the strings off the body. The vibrational energy was in direct contact with the body via the ferrule. Now the energy is absorbed by the stopbar and evenly distributed over a wider area.

[rhoads56]

No no no.

Some newb came in here and said once that the string doesnt have an effect on the sound, if its not between the nut and saddle. So, you all must be wrong...

[Guest Mavet]

I think the decrease in tention happend because the string got shorter (even if beond the playing scale length). Its overall mass has decreased and so it needs less tention to get to the desired pitch.

[mikhailgtrski]

I think the decrease in tention happend because the string got shorter (even if beond the playing scale length). Its overall mass has decreased and so it needs less tention to get to the desired pitch.

...except the string is the exact same length as it was before. It's still a string-through.

I would think its a result of lifting the strings off the body. The vibrational energy was in direct contact with the body via the ferrule. Now the energy is absorbed by the stopbar and evenly distributed over a wider area.

Yeah, that makes sense with regard to the tonal improvement, not so much with the different feel.

Some newb came in here and said once that the string doesnt have an effect on the sound, if its not between the nut and saddle. So, you all must be wrong...

[ooten2]

I'm having the same overtone and brightness issue with one of my guitars with the string-thru/tom combination. I don't notice it through an amp, but it is highly noticable when playing acoustically. I saw this same technique of adding a wood piece between the bridge and ferrules on Jet guitars, and have been wanting to try it. I just haven't got around to it. Now I'm very much inspired! Thanks for the great post!

[fryovanni]

Mike,

How much of a change was there in the angle of the strings as they went over the saddles? Maybe a ruff estimate of before and after in deg.

Peace,Rich

[Guest Mavet]

^ sorry, I thaught he switched the strings thru for a tailpiece

[mikhailgtrski]

How much of a change was there in the angle of the strings as they went over the saddles? Maybe a ruff estimate of before and after in deg.

Very rough guess... before, about 30°, after, maybe 22°.

The break point on the stopbar is 1/4" + off the body. The distance between the TOM and the stopbar is the same as on a Les Paul.

I'm having the same overtone and brightness issue with one of my guitars with the string-thru/tom combination. I don't notice it through an amp, but it is highly noticable when playing acoustically.

Seems like I could hear some of the overtones through the amp... one certain note had a distinct ring to it... nice sig line, BTW

[fryovanni]

How much of a change was there in the angle of the strings as they went over the saddles? Maybe a ruff estimate of before and after in deg.

Very rough guess... before, about 30°, after, maybe 22°.

The stopbar raised the break point 1/4" + off the body. The distance between the TOM and the stopbar is the same as on a Les Paul.

3) It now plays/feels more like a shorter scale instrument (it's 25 1/2")... as if the tension has been decreased a bit, and the strings feel like they have more give.

This makes sense,but given the actual length of the string does not change(and tension will be constant based on mass and length of the string, the break angle may be the contributor to the feel). A while back we had a thread going where I was doing some testing on string lengths and break angles. I found that decreases in break angle seemed to require you to pull the strings a greater distance to bring the string up a step in pitch, but didn't really seem to require as much force to move them(that was just what I percieved, I couldn't get a reliable measure of the force required). Actually I remember Godin mentioned how much different his guitar with a heavy break angle at the headstock(like 18deg.) felt compaired to the one with a slighter break at the headstock(I think he mentioned the slighter angle felt more loose and he had to even raise the action a bit, maybe he can comment as I am just trying to remember an old thread).

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

I found that decreases in break angle seemed to require you to pull the strings a greater distance to bring the string up a step in pitch, but didn't really seem to require as much force to move them(that was just what I percieved, I couldn't get a reliable measure of the force required). Actually I remember Godin mentioned how much different his guitar with a heavy break angle at the headstock(like 18deg.) felt compaired to the one with a slighter break at the headstock(I think he mentioned the slighter angle felt more loose and he had to even raise the action a bit, maybe he can comment as I am just trying to remember an old thread).

I remember that thread, couldn't recall what conclusions you came to. Your description sounds exactly like what I'm noticing... and it does seem like I'm getting slightly more fret buzz now, as if the strings are flopping just a hair more than before. Perhaps it's just that there's less force required to to pull the string across the saddle with a shallower break angle?

I'm sure Perry can tell us exactly what's going on... if he wants to.

[MCH]

Up to this point the strings have been breaking over the saddles and going straight to the ferrules. The string section past the saddle on the G has been producing some unwanted sympathetic overtones on notes played around the 10th fret, and the guitar has been overall just a little brighter than I expected.

Mike

On my string thru builds I don't use brass ferrules. I make my own out of purpleheart (very hard and durable). So I would think this method is very similar to your rosewood stopbar.

curious take

[Drak]

A few before and after pics of this would be greatly appreciated.

[mikhailgtrski]

As it so happens, last weekend my digital camera decided it had taken enough abuse and won't talk to me anymore...

BEFORE - Best I can do for now is this old shot (imagine it mostly finished, with ferrules):

AFTER - it's basically identical to Myka's, except for the ferrules.

[fryovanni]

Perry told me to look really close at what the string does as it passes over the saddle back when I was trying to figure out my findings. I did notice the string created an arch as it passed over the saddle(they don't just make a sharp turn). The arch that is created is much more pronounced when you look at a very strong break angle and compair it to a break with liitle or no break(no break is obviously flat). I suspect all things remaining equal(in terms of the set up for action). Increasing the break angle would raise your action slightly. My thought(and I never really confirmed this so just my opinion) was that when the string is "flexed" into an arch it must change the way the strings flexability to some degree or possibly kinda act like it is pre-loaded(if that makes sense?). Friction of course would increase with a steaper angle and that may play a role, but I am not sure how much because the string is not really moving much as it is fretted or plucked( it will surely move enough to be play a role, as we see tuning issues when strings bind at the nut). I honestly can't explain it all with confidense, but the change does have real impacts.

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

but the change does have real impacts.

...a lot more than I expected.

Since the camera is AWOL, here's a rough sketch:

edit: This has me wondering, what does one of those 1-piece bridges (ala PRS or old Gibson wrap-around) "feel" like? With no string length to speak of behind the saddle, would they respond more like a locking (floyd) bridge? I haven't played enough of them to become familiar with that style.

[westhemann]

This has me wondering, what does one of those 1-piece bridges (ala PRS or old Gibson wrap-around) "feel" like?

just so happens i installed a wraparound on my beast.i really can't tell you that i feel much difference from a t.o.m. at all,but i don't feel like the strings are overly stiff either.

that guitar plays very smooth,but it also has ss frets and a graphite nut...and about a 7 degree headstock angle

[Xanthus]

I have the same setup on the guitar I just built, TOM and string-through. As soon as I read this thread, I ran to check if I had any strange sympathetic vibrations coming out of my guitar too Luckily I think I escaped unharmed. I personally like the feel of taut strings, so the string-through method works well for me. Then I got to thinking... Is there a way for someone running into this problem to get rid of these vibrations as well as keep the feel of "tight" strings? Basically like, a non-invasive procedure. I wonder if there's a way to dampen the part of the string beyond the bridge, if that would help.

Haha, now I want to have a broken guitar to experiment on! And I should find a guitar with a wraparound bridge, and see how that feels compared to a TOM or stringthrough.

On an unrelated note, would you mind telling me where you buy your SS fretwire, Wes? I'm debating fretting my next project guitar with it.

[Setch]

You're all missing one obvious thing; the string is now *longer*. More string length = more string to stretch, so bends are easier. Combine this with less friction over the saddles due to the reduced break angle, and you've got a noticable change to playability.

[mikhailgtrski]

the string is now *longer*.

Good call, Setch. Yeah, now that I think of it, the path did get longer... exact same strings but with a little less slack wound on the tuner posts.

So, do you think the extra - s t r e t c h - is helping to give it that LP-ish tone?

I wonder if there's a way to dampen the part of the string beyond the bridge, if that would help.

A little string or rubber band wound through them?... might look kinda funky, though.

Mandolins often have some sort of dampener under a metal cover.

[fryovanni]

You're all missing one obvious thing; the string is now *longer*. More string length = more string to stretch, so bends are easier. Combine this with less friction over the saddles due to the reduced break angle, and you've got a noticable change to playability.

That does make sense. I am not sure if that explains what I found back when I was doing my testing though. Because When I decreased the break angle at the bridge(I set my test rig with an archtop style tailpiece) the string length actually decreased(although the change in length was very slight). Same thing held true at the headstock(overall length of strings decreased as I decreased the angle). When I was doing the testing I did find that the string length did require you to pull the string farther to bring it up in pitch(which is spot on with what you are saying Setch). This was my finding in that topic-

--------------------SLIGHT----13DEG. @

--------------------ANGLE-----NUT & BRIDGE

LONG STRING-----.41"------.321"

SHORT STRING---.325"-----.306"

As you can see the increase in string length increased the distance needed to pull a string up in pitch(at the same break angle). An increase in break angle decreased the distance to pull a string up in pitch(part of which may very well be increased friction, but I believe there was other factors at play also).

Peace,Rich

[Prostheta]

I agree with dampening strings beyond the bridge and before the nut. A bit of masking tape makes a difference if you're recording and this isn't a standard dampening part of the instrument.

Cue flames, *dons asbestos underwear* etc.

Stretch is good, additional unwanted potentially non-harmonic related poop is not!

[mikhailgtrski]

Because When I decreased the break angle at the bridge(I set my test rig with an archtop style tailpiece) the string length actually decreased(although the change in length was very slight).

...in my case I've decreased the break angle -and- lengthened the string slightly.

[fryovanni]

Because When I decreased the break angle at the bridge(I set my test rig with an archtop style tailpiece) the string length actually decreased(although the change in length was very slight).

...in my case I've decreased the break angle -and- lengthened the string slightly.

Yep, you got the double whammy.

An interesting thing I noted during my test was that the difference in length between the shorter and longer was about 6". If you look at the distance to pitch in my findings. You will see that using 13degree break angles I had about the same results as a string that was 6" shorter with a slight break angle.

If The break angle is really only modifying friction. I see in your drawing you have not only changed your angle to a slighter one at the bridge, but you have also added another break point with a strong break angle just before the ferrules. This would make me expect higher friction in the system than before. The higher friction should lead us in the opposite direction(tighten the "feel" up a bit). This is kinda why I still believe that the arching that is created at the break point plays into the equation(my thought was that it may reduce the elasticity of the string to some degree, but I dunno- I never resolved that in my head).

Peace,Rich

[mikhailgtrski]

I see in your drawing you have not only changed your angle to a slighter one at the bridge, but you have also added another break point with a strong break angle just before the ferrules.

...actually --I think-- I replaced one sharp break at the ferrules with a slightly less sharp break over the rosewood bar and a very slight break at the ferrules.

So we've got lots of possibilities here... I need to re-read that thread of yours.

Then there's the X factor - a hunk of rosewood creating another vibration transmission point. Mucks it up for science, but great for playing.

(I can hear Perry's eyes rolling all the way from Down Under).