Gibson Style Neck Binding

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

I love how Gibson overlaps their neck binding with the ends of the frets, however I am perplexed as to how they accomplish this. Here is what I am talking about: GIBSON BINDING.

I want to do this to one of the guitars I am working on, but what I don't understand is how they are able to have the fret ends either inside or under the binding. If you've played a LP or SG Standard you'll understand what I am trying to say.

Do they install the frets first, then the binding? If so, how do they have the binding actually covering the fret ends! HELP!

[j. pierce]

I believe it's covered in Hiscok's book - but basically, as you suggest, you fret the board before the binding is attached. The fret ends are filed flush with the edges of the board.

Attach the binding, and then using a cabinet scraper or the like scrape it away inbetween the frets. using a small scrollsaw or the like to get the binding roughly shaped (like in the picture you linked) probably saves time in a production environment (interesting that they already have their dots in the binding as well - a trick I might have to try next time) but isn't necessary.

Personally, I think it looks nice, and it probably saves time over undercutting the tang on every fret, but think it kind of feels wierd.

[WezV]

It also means that eventually the high e string is going to start getting caught between the binding and fret - ilike teh way it looks but dont think its a practical design

[SwedishLuthier]

You are right about hte method.

About how time consuming it is compared to under-cutting the frets. If you use a fret tang nipper tool that is waaay faster then scraping away all that extra binding.

[j. pierce]

Hrm - I can see the fret-catching problem occuring, but I've never had that happen to me on the guitars I've owned with the binding this way. I guess I just don't play with the high e enough. Although I usually bend those strings up towards myself, and when I replaced the nut, I think I cut the slots a little more inward, so I stay away from the binding as it is.

As far as time spent - I don't know - with a well honed cabinet scraper, you could shape binding like that fairly quickly. Even with a fret-tang nipper, I find I need to file the last bit of tang away, and then I usually CA glue my fret ends when I'm working with a bound board and the fret crown overhanging, which also usually entails protecting the board from any excess CA glue, as well as cleanup afterwards. Plus the Gibson method means you don't have to do any dressing of the end of the frets. It's still probably not a huge time saving total, but it seems like it save a bit of work. Still, I think it's better suited to the production environment rather than hand-crafted one-offs.

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

It also means that eventually the high e string is going to start getting caught between the binding and fret - ilike teh way it looks but dont think its a practical design

could you explain this? i dont really follow

[WezV]

Its a common problem on old gibsons, the binding shrinks and comes away from the fret slightly leaving a gap. Not so much a problem with more modern glues and plastics but still worth considering

J. pierce is right though - that doesnt have to be a problem if you keep the string away from the binding. I would defiantely avoid thicker binding if using this method because it just reduces the playing surface

This method also makes refrets a lot harder.

[Bertbart]

I saw the procedure at the Kalamazoo Gibson plant in 1976 on a week long warranty seminar.

The fingerboards are thicknessed and sized to a rectangle.

Then the inlay recesses are cut.

Then the the inlays go in.

Then the radius is sanded cleaning up the inlay glue.

Then passed beneath a gang saw to cut the fret slots.

Then at another station I watched a woman set the inlay-ed and slotted rectangular fingerboard on thick slab of steel and using quick clamps held it down. She took a sponge and wiped what appeared to be "Titebond" over the fingerboard thereby filling the slots. She took another sponge and wiped the excess glue off. Under her table were cardboard round containers with different size rolls of pre-bent fretwire. She'd grab the end of one and with a modified pair of end nippers (The end nippers had just the head of a four ounce ball peen hammer head tig welded to one side of the nipper jaws) She would set the wire across the fretboard then tap it in just the end at the very edge and then tap it at just other end...then clip it flush and move to the next slot. After all of the slots were filled she would turn around. Behind her was a hydraulic press with a radius-ed shoe as long as the fretboard. She'd index the fingerboard on the bottom plate and step on a trigger pedal. The upper shoe press would come down and force the frets to seat stopping before crushing the board at some preset pressure the returning to the open position. She would then stack the freshly fretted board on a cart. To continue 24 hours later after the glue dried to the next operation which was cutting the taper of the fretboard with the frets in it.

Then the taper was cut with a sliding table saw fixture with a carbide blade.

Then the tapered board went to another station where another lady glued on the binding which extended above the height of the frets on the fingerboard.

Then on to another station where the excess binding was scraped down leaving the little caps on the edge of the frets.

I asked my host, the assistant plant foreman, why they didn't undercut the frets and install the frets after the binding was put on. He offered that they had tried it both ways and after a time study it wasn't feasible to undercut the frets after the binding was installed. Also it required skilled labor to dress the fret ends and dressing the fret ends also contributed to slowing the process down. Also there was an increase in failed part inspection during the study.

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

I saw the procedure at the Kalamazoo Gibson plant in 1976 on a week long warranty seminar.

The fingerboards are thicknessed and sized to a rectangle.

Then the inlay recesses are cut.

Then the the inlays go in.

Then the radius is sanded cleaning up the inlay glue.

Then passed beneath a gang saw to cut the fret slots.

Then at another station I watched a woman set the inlay-ed and slotted rectangular fingerboard on thick slab of steel and using quick clamps held it down. She took a sponge and wiped what appeared to be "Titebond" over the fingerboard thereby filling the slots. She took another sponge and wiped the excess glue off. Under her table were cardboard round containers with different size rolls of pre-bent fretwire. She'd grab the end of one and with a modified pair of end nippers (The end nippers had just the head of a four ounce ball peen hammer head tig welded to one side of the nipper jaws) She would set the wire across the fretboard then tap it in just the end at the very edge and then tap it at just other end...then clip it flush and move to the next slot. After all of the slots were filled she would turn around. Behind her was a hydraulic press with a radius-ed shoe as long as the fretboard. She'd index the fingerboard on the bottom plate and step on a trigger pedal. The upper shoe press would come down and force the frets to seat stopping before crushing the board at some preset pressure the returning to the open position. She would then stack the freshly fretted board on a cart. To continue 24 hours later after the glue dried to the next operation which was cutting the taper of the fretboard with the frets in it.

Then the taper was cut with a sliding table saw fixture with a carbide blade.

Then the tapered board went to another station where another lady glued on the binding which extended above the height of the frets on the fingerboard.

Then on to another station where the excess binding was scraped down leaving the little caps on the edge of the frets.

I asked my host, the assistant plant foreman, why they didn't undercut the frets and install the frets after the binding was put on. He offered that they had tried it both ways and after a time study it wasn't feasible to undercut the frets after the binding was installed. Also it required skilled labor to dress the fret ends and dressing the fret ends also contributed to slowing the process down. Also there was an increase in failed part inspection during the study.

thats interesting that they would taper the fingerboard after the frets were on, just seems like more work to cut the steel on the board. but i suppose that would make the fret ends perfectly square against the side of the board

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

So I've done a bit of homework on this binding method. I went to Guitar Center today to play a SG Standard, and the way Gibson does it doesn't seem too far out of reach. In fact, I am quite confident that with a little patience (god help me haha) it will come out quite nice. Any last incite before I place a Stew Mac order for some cream plastic binding? Should go nicely with the cream binding I am doing on the headstock, and both sides of the body...

[jmrentis]

This probably won't help you any, but there is a small paragraph about how Gibson binding is done differently, it is about a third of the way done on this Stew Mac binding page. I just found thsi thread funny because I spent a good deal of time last night absorbing everything to do with binding. The pic shows a guy using a bandsaw to cut out the same, although there might be a better way to do that like suggested a scroll saw or something. Good luck!

[wwwdotcomdotnet]

This probably won't help you any, but there is a small paragraph about how Gibson binding is done differently, it is about a third of the way done on this Stew Mac binding page. I just found thsi thread funny because I spent a good deal of time last night absorbing everything to do with binding. The pic shows a guy using a bandsaw to cut out the same, although there might be a better way to do that like suggested a scroll saw or something. Good luck!

I saw that a while ago, but it seems like it would be better to just use a cabinet scraper or a flat razor blade, files, and sand paper.

[awilcox]

Another thing to consider with the gibson style of fretting/binding is that there is less fret between the edge of the neck and outer "E" stings and these strings can slide off of the edge of the neck a little easier when doing vibrato or pull offs - especially with the way gibson ramps there frets down to meet the binding. I recently purchase a new Les Paul and this was such a problem that I refretted it myself - sanding the binding nibs off and undercutting the frets. It plays much nicer now - but this is all personal preference I guess. Here is a before and after pic:

[jmrentis]

Wow, awilcox that is an excellent tip! I wonder how many people have set out the fretboard width and string spacing and then cut the frets short to use that style of binding. As you had I can imagine that would cause a lot of problems with the outer strings.

Did you use a common angle of bevel on those Frets? They seem steeper than usual, it could just be the picture and my eyes. I was just curious if that was the case, if you did that on purpose to leave even more playing area on the frets?

[awilcox]

Wow, awilcox that is an excellent tip! I wonder how many people have set out the fretboard width and string spacing and then cut the frets short to use that style of binding. As you had I can imagine that would cause a lot of problems with the outer strings.

Did you use a common angle of bevel on those Frets? They seem steeper than usual, it could just be the picture and my eyes. I was just curious if that was the case, if you did that on purpose to leave even more playing area on the frets?

They are filed to 35 degrees - but they do look steep in that picture for some reason. I always used 45 degrees before, but I tried 35 on this one and I like it a little better. As long as the ends are dressed good (no sharp edges) it is not noticeable when playing and it does give just a hair more fret on the edges - which I prefer.

[MP63]

Anybody know what kind of glue Gibson uses for the binding?

The regular LMI/StewMac glue ain't holding tight to the fret ends.

Thanks,

MP

[postal]

Anybody know what kind of glue Gibson uses for the binding?

The regular LMI/StewMac glue ain't holding tight to the fret ends.

Thanks,

MP

The glue will depend on the binding. But did you let the glue dry for a least 4-5 hours?

Using nitro binding, the glue is just acetone with small bits of binding melted into it until it becomes a gel like consistency. Very easy, strong and dries fast too.

ABS binding like what stu sells- they no longer carry nitro- is normally glued with an industrial grade of "weld on"- a type different than what stu carries. It has a 4 digit number instead of "weld on 16"... it's like "weld on 5407" or something- I forgot the actual number.....

I believe the only difference between these 2 versions of weld on, is that the industrial one is made of abs, acetone and MEK. The stu one I think is just ABS and MEK.....

So you could play mad chemist, add a small amount of acetone, and small amount of ABS to thicken it up again and try that.....

Or just use the stu glue, and wick some thin CA at the fret ends to try and hold them in place.