mikevirok Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Ok guys, here's my issue: I'm building 4 guitars each with their own significances. I want to find the most efficient tuners that would work for my instruments. Here are the different configurations: Hipshot Trem (floating) with a 13º headstock (3x3 tuner design) Hipshot Trem (floating) with a scooped Fender-styled headstock (3x3 tuner design) I was thinking of using the Planet Waves Auto-Trim tuners, but I have since realized that these are more of a hindrance than help. So, I was looking into the Grover locking-style tuners (18:1). What else would you all recommend? mik'e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherokee6 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Those are a great choice. I'm partial to Grovers. I've been studying the newer tuners and agree that the Planet waves models can be a problem as they can be overtightened quite easily. There was another set out there; quite expensive; the name escapes me, but had a 40:1 ratio. I think Ed Roman uses them on his mass produced guitars. Anyway they have issues also. Gotoh, however has as part of their Delta line a nice locking tuner with, I think, 21:1 gear ratio. They seem to have good write ups. I don't care for the design, (I like the schaller / grover hardened steel hard edge look) but they seem to be a great choice. I'll probably get a set myself at some point. I'll get the link, but you can see them at Allparts. Brian may have them in his inventory also. Just make sure they're described as such in a catalog. I believe they're the 510 or 512 series. They are expesive, though. OK: Brian has them!: http://www.universaljems.com/cart/tuner3x3lock.htm Check these Steinbergers if you have the cash to spend. They're a proven design. They're usually put in the tail, but I don't think it'll be a problem installing them in the peghead. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,...ess_Tuners.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegarehanman Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I've heard that the steinberg tuners have some issues with quality control I can't confirm that from experience, but it's worth looking into. I like sperzel and schaller locker tuners a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I like schaller tuners with the ebony buttons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CB- Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I've used Gotoh Kluson copies in the Gibson and Fender types. Used Schaller M6 mini. Used Grovers. Used Ping (that were copies of Grover's copy of Kluson). Used Ping copies of Schaller. All in all - you'd be hard pressed to find a bad tuner, and even harder pressed to find one better than Grover Rotomatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanthus Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Sperzel lockings I don't know how they'd work re: tremolos and string trees, I'm thinking between the bend of the string tree and the nut, tremol-ing would create binding issues. That's what the locking nut is for, methinks. However, with regular tiltback headstocks and a slippery nut, Sperzels work awesome for me. I even put them on my hardtail build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevirok Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Yeah, I picked up a couple of sets of the Grover locking (18:1) tuners. I'm building 4 guitars at the moment, and I want each one with similar tuners to keep the continuity flowing. The issue I may run into is with the 3 guitars that have "scooped" head-stocks; I don't want to run into the need to use string trees or string retainers if the over-all height of the farther tuning posts on either side are too high and don't allow the string to rest securely over the nut. I think I may have a solution if this is the case, but I'm hoping that the Grovers are going to work out fine for what I need them for. The 13º headstock will not be a problem and I plan on using them on that model no matter what. It's just with those damned Fender-styled scooped 3x3 head-stocks... I guess I should look into scarf-jointing my head stocks from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Sorbera Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 The schaller locking tuners are very low profile which is good for fender style headstocks, it creates more pressure on the nut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpa Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Three of my guitars have Grovers on them, very nice tuners and very durable, but they tarnish easily. I like the old style tuners better, the ones that say "Pat. Pending USA" on the back and have a more defined look. And regarding headstock shapes, my favorite is the scooped 3 X 3 with the strings going straight thru the nut (arrowhead shape). I don't mind a few trees and I seem to get the easiest string bending with that style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick500 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I like Sperzel locking tuners best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Anything that says Schaller, Sperzel, or Grover is going to work just fine. Steinberger tuners have the unfortunate tendency to crack because certain structural elements are made of pot metal. Gotoh makes good tuners and other parts, but they're really just Asian copies of Schaller and Grover designs. I personally use Schaller lockers on my Strat. They work quite well enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bentwood999 Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 schaller, grover,planet waves,gotoh,sperzel whatever the person im dealing with wants sears and robuck LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarter Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 Heard some good things about the Hipshot machines. Like the Schaller M6's pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I was thinking of using the Planet Waves Auto-Trim tuners, but I have since realized that these are more of a hindrance than help. What makes you say this? I really like the planet waves stuff! i have had problems with the grover auto locking tuners not gripping the high e string very well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevirok Posted June 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I was thinking of using the Planet Waves Auto-Trim tuners, but I have since realized that these are more of a hindrance than help. What makes you say this? I really like the planet waves stuff! i have had problems with the grover auto locking tuners not gripping the high e string very well Well, along with learning how to build guitars I am also learning how to repair them. I was given a guitar on "set-up day" and it was a pain to set it each time with the auto-trim tuners cutting the string length so short. Also, my instructor and I had a long conversation about fads and gadgets. He's been involved with all of this guitar repair and building for many years now and said something that has begun to stick in my head; "All of these new 'inventions' are all just short-cuts. The more little things you add onto something that should be simple and functional, the more there is to fail later down the lines. Put good stuff on it, and you won't have to worry as much later.". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I always wondered how the cutting mechanism of an auto-trim tuner could stay sharp over time? I've never seen a guitar with the auto-trims, so I don't know exactly how the cutter works. It's too bad there have been a few reports about the Steinbergers (which contrary to an earlier post, are not used primarily as bridge tuners). If they stepped up quality a bit (eg. replacing the earlier-mentioned pot metal) they could have a legend on their hands. That said, I know of some pretty high-class builders who have used the Steinbergers. Godin had a problem with one set... I wonder how the replacements are holding up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 They may have changed them. I know a guy that has a set of them, and he says they work better than any other tuners he has. His only reason why they are "better" is the high turn ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted June 18, 2007 Report Share Posted June 18, 2007 I was thinking of using the Planet Waves Auto-Trim tuners, but I have since realized that these are more of a hindrance than help. What makes you say this? I really like the planet waves stuff! i have had problems with the grover auto locking tuners not gripping the high e string very well Well, along with learning how to build guitars I am also learning how to repair them. I was given a guitar on "set-up day" and it was a pain to set it each time with the auto-trim tuners cutting the string length so short. Also, my instructor and I had a long conversation about fads and gadgets. He's been involved with all of this guitar repair and building for many years now and said something that has begun to stick in my head; "All of these new 'inventions' are all just short-cuts. The more little things you add onto something that should be simple and functional, the more there is to fail later down the lines. Put good stuff on it, and you won't have to worry as much later.". Its a fair point about gadgets - really any named brand set of basic non-locking tuners will perform its job admirably well - but your afer locking tuners because you want to take a 'short cut' i wouldnt write the planet waves of just because of that. I have only used them once but was very impressed with the quality and functionality- i was a little worried about wasting strings because of not being able to re-thread them onto the post easily so i decided to get a cheap set to use to set up the guitar initially and then replace them with higher quality strings one by one once it was set up - maybe with a few small tweaks after To be honest i really didnt need to bother - when you do set-ups more often you will find you spend a lot less time winding and unwinding strings, and because the strings are locked in the post anyway you shouldnt need to unthread them unless the neck needs to come off. Once the guitar is properly set-up the benefit from the tuners is quite high - especially for live players needing quick string changes The only downside i saw with the planet waves was that they take away the ability to wind strings down on a post to create a greater force on the nut - worth considering when working out headstock angles. Some people didnt like the black and chrome look either. The cutter seems very sharp and i cant imagine it getting blunt enough to stop working for a long, long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevirok Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Its a fair point about gadgets - really any named brand set of basic non-locking tuners will perform its job admirably well - but your afer locking tuners because you want to take a 'short cut' Actually, I am after the locking tuners to help keep my floating Hipshot bridges a little more stable in case of heavy vibrato action. The Grovers will do just fine for what I want/need in a tuner for my builds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 exactly - you are after a 'short cut' to stop having to retune as often. There is nothing wrong with that, the one time i have used planet waves was on a trem-equipped guitar "All of these new 'inventions' are all just short-cuts. Indeed they are, but i think most new developments of an idea are intended as 'short cuts', or labour saving devices. The more little things you add onto something that should be simple and functional, the more there is to fail later down the lines. Like when we took a horse and added a cart, or took a cart and added an engine. If only i still had my horse i wouldnt have to worry about my car starting this morning. I think that goes for normal locking tuners just as much as the planet waves, the only real extra they have over 'ordinary' locking tuners is the string cutter which is very well implemented into the design and very solidly built. I even thought the locking mechanism was more stable than the Gotoh's and grovers i have used before. On the gotoh's the thumbwheels always seemed a bit loose and i think i have mentioned that i had some grovers that wouldnt grip the high e string. I am not trying to advertise for planet waves or anything but since you said in your opening post that: I have since realized that these are more of a hindrance than help. I wondered exactly what made them a hindrance to you since i was so happy with them In a discussion called 'let's talk tuners' i think this might be valuable for anyone looking into buying some locking tuners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevirok Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 That original quote regarding to "short cuts" came from the mouth of my instructor, Tim. Those were merely words that I was repeating. I agree with him since he was not referring to the locking mechanisms being the "short cut" at all, but the string cutter being so. Yes, the locking tuners can be labeled a "short cut" as you would like to see it, but stability is stability. There's something about having to tune in between each and every song that is not quite satisfying while playing live. In my past band, I use/used a PRS Swamp Ash Special. I palm-manipulate the bridge on that so much that without the locking tuners & nicely stretched strings I would be re-tuning each and every song. In some situations that is fine, but when the songs need to flow 3 at a time back-to-back or when dealing with unruly club owners who want something always happening on stage and no technical "tune-ups", the locking tuners increase my guitar's ability to remain in tune better while playing live than a guitar without them. Saying that the locking tuners on my guitar is a short cut to not tuning all of the time is like saying that the locking nut on a Floyd Rose system is the same. Anyhow, I am not trying to slam Planet Waves; I wouldn't have initially bought 3 sets of the tuners for use on my projects if I wasn't intrigued to begin with. I am just taking some advice from my instructor who has yet to steer me wrong to this day. That's not saying that anyone's advice here on this forum would be any less credible, besides I did post this thread in order to find others' opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim_ado Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 i was under the impression that locking tuners didnt nessersaraily keep the in better but locked the string so you didnt have to wind it as much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 Saying that the locking tuners on my guitar is a short cut to not tuning all of the time is like saying that the locking nut on a Floyd Rose system is the same. If we are sticking with your instructers 'short-cut' terminology i would argue that a locking nut is one and locking tuners are one also. they are all devices that mean you have to do a job less often - i am not saying that is a bad thing, i completely understand the need of a live player to spend less time tuning/restringing. Stability and ease of use is a common goal for all of us "All of these new 'inventions' are all just short-cuts. The more little things you add onto something that should be simple and functional, the more there is to fail later down the lines. Put good stuff on it, and you won't have to worry as much later.". My point is that the quote from your instructor is just as valid for normal locking tuners as it is for the string cutter on planet waves tuners. As far as i am aware most locking tuners usually have somekind of mechanism inside the post of the tuner that obviously makes the tuner weaker by design than an older style tuner with a solid post. that makes it more likely to fail later on down the line than an older design. I suppose i am trying to say that if you persevered with the planet waves you may find you actually find them superior to basic locking tuners - the performance benefits they provide are worth the little extra fiddliness when setting up, i suppose we could say the same thing about locking nuts as well, from a tech's point of view they are awfull things put to players that need that stability they are a godsend. At the moment i am getting a bit fed up of doing set-ups for people that dont know how to wrap strings properly onto a tuner post, some of these people are very serious musicians but still seem to take absolutely no care when doing this. If i am seeing that quite often i cant imagine how many guitars there are in the world that have tuning problems because of bad windings!!! I have also seen some people that do know how to attach strings get themselves some locking tuners and continue to use as many windings as they did before even though the locking tuners make that un-neccisary and they lose the benefit of having locking tuners. I am fond of the planet waves stuff because it makes this an idiot proof process for anyone (well maybe there are some that will need to be shown once) Again it comes back to that ease of use (for the player) and stability thing. As a tech and a player you probably need to be more aware of both sides to make life easy for yourself, as somebody that is primarily a tech/builder i have to be more aware of how to make life easier for my players even if it makes things a bit more fiddly for myself Nice having this debate with you, i feel we have presented a much more balanced argument for anyone who is looking into buying some planet waves locking tuners Cheers Wez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted June 19, 2007 Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 i was under the impression that locking tuners didnt nessersaraily keep the in better but locked the string so you didnt have to wind it as much That keeps it in tune better because excess string windage is a large part of tuning instability. Think about what happens as a trem is used - the windings are constantly loosened and tightened and may not settle in exactly the same place. Its also partly why you should stretch strings in, it helps them to settle into place on the post better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikevirok Posted June 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2007 As a tech and a player you probably need to be more aware of both sides to make life easy for yourself, as somebody that is primarily a tech/builder i have to be more aware of how to make life easier for my players even if it makes things a bit more fiddly for myself Exactly. These guitars I am building are for me this time around. I am building them to how I would like them to function, not for someone else. If someone requested the Planet Waves tuners for a build of mine, I would not question them or persuade them otherwise. I would have to agree that this was a fun (although heated at times) debate on the locking tuners. Again, I think the Planet Waves company has presented many products over the past few years that have been great for musicians looking for compact, all-in-one designs. It varys from player to player, builder to builder, tech to tech. No two people will find exactly the same level of appreciation in their gear, no matter what component it may be. Hell, this same debate could be made over any aspect of a guitar. Bottom line: I'm glad we shed some light on this subject. Cheers as well WezV. miK'e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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