Tonal Properties Of Finishes?

[Omega]

I was wondering if there are any tonal or sound differences of a natural, oil finish (like Truoil) versus lacquered based finishes. Also, are there any sound differences between using a wood filler or NOT using a wood filler when using an oil based finish?

I just finished a mahogany electric guitar using Truoil. I did NOT use pore filler since I was going for the natural, grainy look (three coats of Truoil--done). It looks amazing. However, I am having sound issues (the guitar sounds kinda mushy and dark), so I was thinking it might have something to do with my finish.

Thanks.

[CrazyManAndy]

Trust me, the finish has nothing to do with you're guitar sounding mushy. When it comes to electric guitars, finishes don't have much effect on tone. Most of it is a bunch of tone voodoo.

I would start by looking at the electronics before moving on to other considerations.

CMA

Edited August 6, 2007 by CrazyManAndy

[Daniel Sorbera]

Trust me, the finish has nothing to do with you're guitar sounding mushy. When it comes to electric guitars, finishes don't have much effect on tone. Most of it is a bunch of tone voodoo.

I would start by looking at the electronics before moving on to other considerations.

CMA

Actually finishes have more impact than you think. There really is a lot of real hogwash out there that you can call "tone voodoo". The problem is that people instantly label things they don't understand (or have not tested) as "tone voodoo". After hearing what older more experienced luthiers have to say, and doing tests on my own, I can tell you that the finish *is* indeed important. On acoustic guitars the finish (and more importantly, how it's applied) can make or break the guitar. On electrics it matters, but not nearly as much.

Don't be so quick to write something off as crazy just because you've seen other people label it as "tone voodoo" on the web.

[fryovanni]

Exactly what Godin said.

A finish has the potential on an electric to modify the way the body and neck will vibrate and react to string vibration. With an electric the body is not the primary producer of sound as is the case with an acoustic guitar. So the impact will be less notable. If your guitar sounds significantly mushy or dark. Look to the most significant elements first. Strings, pickups and electronics, amp, and set up. Then move to the things that directly support the strings(nut, tuners,bridge, tailpiece), and the way the strings are breaking over or fixed to these components. Be sure all your hardaware is secured and mounted well. Then you can look at body wood(density), structure(stiffness) and adhesives. Then move on to finish and other smaller factors.

Nothing will change the tone of a guitar faster or more dramatically than strings(IMO, FWIW ).

Peace,Rich

[CrazyManAndy]

I know finishes are vital on acoustic instruments, but most of what I've read says that finishes don't have much impact on the tone of electric guitars. At the very least, I couldn't see the finish causing such drastic issues as what Omega described.

You're right that I have never conducted any sort of tests or anything, so you can't take my opinion as conclusive. I'm wide open to any material you can give me tackling the issue.

CMA

[fryovanni]

I know finishes are vital on acoustic instruments, but most of what I've read says that finishes don't have much impact on the tone of electric guitars. At the very least, I couldn't see the finish causing such drastic issues as what Omega described.

You're right that I have never conducted any sort of tests or anything, so you can't take my opinion as conclusive. I'm wide open to any material you can give me tackling the issue.

CMA

Andy,

I can tell you for sure that I have not done the kind of testing that could prove just how significant type and or thickness of finish would be. Nor could I start to quantify the effects with different species and so forth. So your gut reaction that it is some kind of "Voodoo"(man I hate the way that is thrown around) is not far off. I have heard notable changes in the performance of a soundboard, and from this I find it easier to buy into the belief. I would also point out that penetrating oil finishes have messed with the resonance of soundboards also(even though these are very thin light film finishes), however many actually prefer oil finishes on electrics because they feel the finish has less impact. So it is a bit of a wild card to say the least. When you have a wild variable with conflicting information. I think it is best to try to sort it out with your best judgement(keep an open mind(if something may have merrit you certainly shouldn't reject it), but hold on tight to your healthy skepticism ).

The limits of my beliefs on finish go something like this. I only want enough finish to do the job it is intended to do. That is provide a degree of physical protection, and limit the rate moisture passes to and from the wood. I want the finish to be a surface film barrier to achieve these requirements. I am not dead set against all penetrating finishes, but really prefer to avoid them as I feel I have better options in my opinion. I believe for a film finish to provide the best protection at the minimal thickness it needs to be an even coat, and filling pores well is a good way to set up a surface that will accept a very even film. All my beliefs tell me not to use an oil based finish on an unfilled body, but this is a finish that many people seem to really like and many very experienced people also believe this type of finish allows the charicteristics of the wood to come through in the sound. So I have to accept the fact that I just don't have all the answers , but I will continue to listen and experiment and observe, because I know there is something there(that is about all we can do.).

Peace,Rich

[cukaracha]

speaking of tone quality, does the grade/quality of the wood play a major role??

[Mattia]

The thickness of the finish, moreso than the type of finish in and of itself, is the important thing. Oil finishes have higher damping than film finishes, but frankly, I'd be surprised if anyone could tell the difference in a blind listening test (ie, the only kind that matters) if we're talking about an electric guitar, doubly so if it's an electric guitar played through a high-gain amp. Besides, tons and tons of oil finished guitars out there that sound absolutely wonderful, and I can't say I noticed any differences, tonally, pre and post finishing on any of my oiled electrics (it's also not like you put that much on there, and the oil finishes used are really varnishes, not raw oils).

Most all film finishes can be perfectly transparent (acoustically) if they're applied correctly. Nitro as magic, Poly is evil, that's pure Tone Voodoo of the highest order. Now, put an absurdly thick poly finish on a badly built acoustic, then yes, of course, it's going to have an effect. Use the same one for a perfectly well applied thin finish, better.

Frankly, since I do all my oil finishes on unfilled mahogany and the like, look to change your strings, then your pickups, then your amp, then all sorts of other things about the body (say, wood choice...some mahogany can be a little 'mushy' if you don't have other things balancing out that slight tendency towards midrangeyness), and not the three coats of Tru-Oil.

There's also no such thing as 'tonewood', ie, that makes it intrinsically different from other woods. There are good pieces of wood and bad pieces, and tonally, frankly, the boring straight grained stuff is often better than most of the flamey outrageously pretty stuff.